Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API guidance
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Fri, 07 October 2016 22:04 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2016 15:04:14 -0700
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To: Ilari Liusvaara <ilariliusvaara@welho.com>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API guidance
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On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 3:00 PM, Ilari Liusvaara <ilariliusvaara@welho.com> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 07, 2016 at 01:41:14PM -0700, Watson Ladd wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Ilari Liusvaara > > <ilariliusvaara@welho.com> wrote: > > > > > > Also, it is very likely that 0-RTT would need its own read API, because > > > it is pretty unlikely that existing API could be safely retrofitted > > > or even purpose-built unified API be designed that isn't just asking > > > for security problems via mixing 0-RTT and 1-RTT data. > > > > Yes. In particular I think the TLS state machine transitions need to > > be ordered with respect to the arrival and sending of data. The > > challenge for a multithreaded program (yes, some programs have > > multiple threads sending and receiving at once) is making this make > > sense, or even a single-threaded program where the TLS stack can > > change state at times not visible to the sending thread. Maybe there > > is some slop here, like 0-RTT can become 1-RTT on send, but this > > raises all sorts of problems for receiving. I think we need to require > > separation in the API. > > 0-RTT can't be allowed to become 1-RTT on send (unless it is auto- > retransmit, which needs to be disableable, as sometimes that just plain > won't work). > Can you explain why that is? -Ekr This impiles that the application always needs to explicitly signal > the end of 0-RTT data, even just to abort sending it. > > > > (This is the reason one needs to be especially careful when combining > > > dynamic client certificates with HTTP/2... Basically, it can not be > > > done safely without coordination on application layer). > > > > > > One likely wants application protocol to be able to specify part of > > > or the entiere request context and to extract that part in the other > > > end when requesting a certificate selection. This is to allow putting > > > part of coordination data into the request itself. However, this is not > > > sufficient for e.g. HTTP/2 signaling, so more needs to be exchanged at > > > application layer. > > > > > > And then upon completion of the authentication (either successful or > > > explicitly rejected), signal the application with the new certificate > > > chain and the context the request had. > > > > This is going to require major changes to APIs and to the HTTP/2 > > layer. It also interacts with token binding, whee! My question then > > becomes one of what we actually need: can we assume that leakage > > between authentication contexts over a single session is safe because > > all contexts represent the same principal, by restricting the usages, > > or is this overly restrictive? > > Yes, it is going to reuqire such changes. > > And you absolutely can not assume that all contexts present the same > principal. > > And as I said, in multiplexed protocol like HTTP/2, you need application- > level coordination on top. TLS just can't do that. > > > When we have multiple requests and replies in flight and the > > authentication state changes, things get nasty. If we think of TLS as > > sending a stream of events including authentication changes to the > > application, this fits the semantics of the TLS draft as I understand > > them to be, but does not necessarily fit what application protocols > > want. There might be a semantic mismatch here requiring reworking of > > one or another part. > > Also, some applications presumably want the events done synchronously, > so they don't move with data reads. > > > Basically, post-handshake auth is heckuva nasty problem. > > > -Ilari > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >
- [TLS] Application layer interactions and API guid… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Nick Harper
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] Application layer interactions and API … Watson Ladd