Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-scsv-03.txt> (TLS Fallback Signaling Cipher Suite Value (SCSV) for Preventing Protocol Downgrade Attacks) to Proposed Standard
mrex@sap.com (Martin Rex) Mon, 19 January 2015 15:55 UTC
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To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:54:56 +0100
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Subject: Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-scsv-03.txt> (TLS Fallback Signaling Cipher Suite Value (SCSV) for Preventing Protocol Downgrade Attacks) to Proposed Standard
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Salz, Rich wrote: >> without all of the massive serious operational problems of >> the current fallback-scsv proposal: > > Can you elaborate on what this problems are? The current document scratches the tip of the iceberg here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-scsv-03#section-5 We know that part of the problem isn't TLS version/extension intolerant servers, but version/extension intolerant middle-boxes. These can be client-side middleboxes, network middle-boxes or servers-side middleboxes. In such cases, the server will only see handshakes with the fallback SCSV asserted and, if it supports a sufficiently new protocol will (have to) abort all TLS handshakes that reach the server in a knee-jerk-reaction if it follows that proposal. There is exactly zero room for common sense behaviour left by this proposal. We also know that there is a significant amount of installed-base servers which never return any fatal SSL alerts before closing a network connection after a TLS handshake failure (Microsoft IIS), because they're using a transport-less TLS protocol stack and the application caller (not just the TLS server-side implementation) will have to be changed in order to make a fatal TLS alert newly appear on the network. Aborting the TLS handshake is going to be the most stupid behaviour in any case, because it will require a new TCP connection and a new TCP handshake, plus any necessary app-level protocol negotiation (HTTP CONNECT proxy traversal and pre-STARTTLS protocol handshakes) to be repeated. It would be so *MUCH* cleaner and easier when a different server behaviour was specified and allowed (rather than rubber-stamping the knee-jerk-reaction), such as allowing the server to continue the TLS handshake with protocol version (ClientHello.client_version + 1) when ClientHello contained the FALLBACK_SCSV among the TLS ciphersuites. Such server behaviour would still allow the client to recognize that the server could do better when offered, and allow the client to perform sensible risk management -- becaus only the client knows what kind of "better" protocol options it did not offer (remove) from his ClientHello and how often it attempted to connect to the server. Continuation of the handshake would also work much nicer (not require any app-level changes) with servers such as Microsoft IIS, which currently do not send fatal alerts back before closing the network connection. (the only thing we would have to addtionally specify for servers continuing with (ClientHello.client_version + 1) is to skip doing the protocol version check on the RSA premaster secret for static-RSA key exchanges). Another problem of the current proposal is that it addresses only TLS version intolerance, but not TLS extension intolerance. *BOTH* exist out there. And it doesn't really address reconnect fallbacks that skip TLS versions on the downgrade dance. MSIE 8 on Windows 7 will apparently perform the downgrade dance in the fashion TLSv1.2 -> TLSv1.0 -> SSLv3 This gets more important if the cause for handshake failures are middle-boxes rather than the servers themselves. -Martin
- [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-scsv-0… The IESG
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- [TLS] advertizing the minimum TLS supported versi… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] advertizing the minimum TLS supported v… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] advertizing the minimum TLS supported v… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Henrik Grubbström
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Henrik Grubbström
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Henrik Grubbström
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex