Re: [TLS] Fwd: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-tls-dtls-connection-id-07

Achim Kraus <> Sun, 11 October 2020 17:43 UTC

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To: Watson Ladd <>, Benjamin Kaduk <>
Cc: Joseph Salowey <>, "" <>,
References: <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
From: Achim Kraus <>
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Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 19:43:14 +0200
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Subject: Re: [TLS] Fwd: Re: AD review of draft-ietf-tls-dtls-connection-id-07
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Hi Wadson,

> The doubt is because of where it appears not that it appears. If every
> value was preceded by its length the encoding would obviously be
> injective.

I hope, this is just a "typo" or "mistake".

Prepending the length is the change, Ben want to use to protect against
injection. You now say, this will be "obviously injective".

> Here though it isn't clear if two different inputs to the
> encoding could end up the same.

Though the MAC definition starts with "MAC_write_key", I'm pretty sure,
all examples so far are just incomplete. They must declare, if the
"different/ambiguous" CIDs are refer to the same "MAC_write_key" or not.

"different MAC_write_key" => obviously "end up" different.
"same MAC_write_key" => the decoding of the records gets ambiguous

> In fact I think in the MAC setting
> there almost certainly is a problem as the length of the ciphertext is
> right after the cid length, and with some cleverness you can come up
> with a cid and ciphertext that could be interpreted multiple ways.
> Unfortunately I haven't followed the draft's discussions that closely.
> I do not understand how a CID is supposed to be parsed by a recipient
> when the length can change and the length field is not encoded, but
> perhaps I'm misreading the intent of the [] notation in the record
> layer of the draft.

That's just a theroretical numbers game. No one os far made any really
useful example from start to end. FMPOV, "CID with dynamic length" MUST
use a unique/deterministic encoding. If that encoding ambiguous, as
others imply/assume in their "numbers game", the whole record gets

Just as forecast:
Without agreement, that the CIDs must be encoded using deterministic
interpretation, which in my opinion obsoletes these "number games",
next Summer either Raccoon or Kenny will write up their next
"time side channel attack" on this.
(The ambiguity will end up in try out the MAC for both "different
MAC_write_key" and so create a time signal. Or with "same MAC_write_key"
the receiver will not know by the failing MAC, which interpretation is
the right. I guess, this will end up in decrypt twice, also obvious time

best regards
Achim Kraus