Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically better for TLS 1.3
Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> Sun, 03 November 2013 23:28 UTC
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Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 15:28:14 -0800
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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
To: Ralf Skyper Kaiser <skyper@thc.org>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically better for TLS 1.3
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On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Ralf Skyper Kaiser <skyper@thc.org> wrote: > Hi Yoav, > > i agree with the UI issue. That's the only use that I can see where > renegotiation is useful. > > I would guess here that 99% of all TLS users (if not 99.99%) do not need > this feature. > > The 99.99% of all users would have to carry the risk of complexity to > satisfy the need of the 0.01% of users. > > There are hopefully other ways to satisfy the need of the 0.01% without the > 99.99% of us having to take an extra risk (complexity). (Anyone? Ideas are > welcome...). Kick it into the application layer. > > (ps when i'm speaking about complexity i do not mean the working hours it > would take to write the code [earlier replies by somebody indicated this] > but rather the security complexity [making mistakes and auditing a > process/procedures/... that is rarely used]). > > regards, > > ralf > > > > > On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Yoav Nir <ynir@checkpoint.com> wrote: >> >> >> On Nov 3, 2013, at 9:03 AM, Ralf Skyper Kaiser <skyper@thc.org> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > avoid renegotiation. It serves no purpose and only adds complexity. It >> > is so much more secure to kill and re-establish the TLS if the counters run >> > out instead of renegotiating. >> > >> >> Hi, Ralf >> >> The one use of renegotiation that I'm aware of, is for overcoming a UI >> issue in browsers. If you do a TLS handshake with mutual authentication (so >> the server sends a CertReq), the browser pops up a dialog box with all the >> certificates you might have. Website designers with to avoid that, >> especially on the welcome screen, so the web server does not send a CertReq. >> Instead, they present a welcome screen with a button or link that says >> "Login with certificates" Clicking that performs a regular SSL handshake (or >> does nothing at all if the connection is already established), but when the >> request comes in ("GET /login_with_certs HTTP/1.1"), the web server sends a >> HELLO_REQUEST, and in the resulting handshake it sends the CertReq, so the >> pop-up appears when the user *is* expecting it. >> >> I totally agree that renegotiation for rekeying is useless for people who >> are not doing DES-CBC and 3DES-CBC. It's even superfluous for them in most >> cases (you're pretty save doing 500,000,000 blocks, and that's 4 GB in 3DES. >> How many sites do you browse with 4 GB? Maybe downloading stuff…) >> >> But before we can drop renegotiation from the standards, or recommend that >> implementors don't implement it, we need an alternate mechanism to upgrade >> from server-authenticated to mutually-authenticated within the same session. >> That is a real market need. How about allowing a CertReq sent from the >> server to the client in the middle of a connection, followed by the client >> sending a Certificate and Certificate Verify. For simplicity, we could >> always do that after the Finished, so that it's always Server-authenticated >> session when the Finished is sent. >> >> Yoav >> > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > -- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
- [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically bette… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Dan Harkins
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Robert Ransom
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Robert Ransom
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Robert Ransom
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Dan Harkins
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Robert Ransom
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Dan Harkins
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Robert Ransom
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Robert Ransom
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Dan Harkins
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Robert Ransom
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] removal of nonces [was: What would make TLS… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Andy Lutomirski
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] removal of nonces [was: What would make… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Robert Ransom
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Ralf Skyper Kaiser
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Ralf Skyper Kaiser
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Robert Ransom
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Ralf Skyper Kaiser
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Ralf Skyper Kaiser
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Ralf Skyper Kaiser
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Ralf Skyper Kaiser
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Jeff Jarmoc
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Johannes Merkle
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Dan Harkins
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Santosh Chokhani
- Re: [TLS] What would make TLS cryptographically b… Ralf Skyper Kaiser