Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS*
Eric Mill <eric@konklone.com> Mon, 21 November 2016 01:52 UTC
Return-Path: <eric@konklone.com>
X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2D4129454 for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 17:52:07 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=pobox.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rrLNI0q38QFO for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 17:52:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (pb-smtp2.pobox.com [64.147.108.71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7A0F1293E1 for <tls@ietf.org>; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 17:52:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from sasl.smtp.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B784A51FC7 for <tls@ietf.org>; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 20:52:03 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type; s=sasl; bh=gQThHgZKqnxPHwVzBNQnNyv2cI8=; b=PE21Qb C0D1hoBXJQpWf10VTbZVc2oskj/3eITAH+sG3hKEtCTPIocEJSa4Ykj6vXPUxM99 ErapXnxUko2DmhBsUwfM/usFtJXMzRYDI+0gmuMxRZxtejJcDe/WGR/6qGH9WiAV /5rnMTiNPPkjCD8wMonkfr67twAueseCuHjcg=
Received: from pb-smtp2.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEC7951FC6 for <tls@ietf.org>; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 20:52:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail-qk0-f173.google.com (unknown [209.85.220.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp2.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43A4051FC2 for <tls@ietf.org>; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 20:52:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: by mail-qk0-f173.google.com with SMTP id n204so333381293qke.2 for <tls@ietf.org>; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 17:52:03 -0800 (PST)
X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC01bZdGooCsFZ/xVdM1OqKj2xbMMouPhIr4vkYUYsQ2cKOx4r3vA2bunmHqW711aw8VsGtrRo0j6VTYjhA==
X-Received: by 10.55.207.78 with SMTP id e75mr15266034qkj.36.1479693122613; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 17:52:02 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.200.44.205 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Nov 2016 17:51:21 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <1479669457.3015489.793828961.121B4C8F@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1479669457.3015489.793828961.121B4C8F@webmail.messagingengine.com>
From: Eric Mill <eric@konklone.com>
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 20:51:21 -0500
X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: <CANBOYLXXkrtCQ76YUDEeroN-jyMsRFN-a+gU_EqWQMzoa6krOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANBOYLXXkrtCQ76YUDEeroN-jyMsRFN-a+gU_EqWQMzoa6krOw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Filippo Valsorda <ml@filippo.io>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1145b7b8f347350541c5e6a0"
X-Pobox-Relay-ID: 1968B062-AF8D-11E6-A51A-3AB77A1B28F4-82875391!pb-smtp2.pobox.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/S15vFrySP5l5aLj9xyjeeZQaZAo>
Cc: "<tls@ietf.org>" <tls@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS*
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls/>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 01:52:07 -0000
On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Filippo Valsorda <ml@filippo.io> wrote: > I'm definitely for 1.3. > > I get where 4 is coming from, but 1.2 is not going anywhere soon, and we > spent the last 10 years training people that the high-numbered one is > bad, and that the 1.x ones are cool. > > I really don't want to have the following conversation, with the exact > same people the proponents of 4 are trying to help: > > "You only support 1.2, you should support 4" > "Oh, wasn't it that weird other way around where the high one was > broken?" > "Ah, no, 4 is the latest and greatest" > "Oh, ok, then I should support only 4 and 3?" > "Nono, 3 is terribly broken." > "Oh, so only 4? Do all clients support it?" > "Uh, you should keep 1.2" > "Ah, so 1.2 is better than 3 but worse than 4?" > "Yeah... I'm sorry" > > "4 is great, 3 is bad, 1.2 is good" is harder than "3 is bad, 1.2 is > good" was, and harder than "3 is bad, 1.2 is good, 1.3 is great" would > be. > While this conversation might not be impossible, I think it's an unlikely hypothetical. A change to TLS 4 wouldn't be to address confusion for those who have already internalized the weird version history (which is mostly people like us on-list), but for people who only think about TLS/SSL when they're forced to think about it, once every year or few. For those people, the real conversations I've had were based on superficial glances and hazy memories of the protocol history that are reconstituted every time the subject comes up. Naming it TLS 4 wouldn't fix it for everyone, but it would be all-upside for some -- as well as providing a helpful opportunity to drop the faux-minor version number and simplify the numbering overall in the long term. The near-term annoyance of renaming things by folks close to the WG, and the chance of some confusion around the edges, seem like small issues compared to a positive investment in bending the sanity curve of the next 20 years of lazy enterprise decisions. -- Eric > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > -- konklone.com | @konklone <https://twitter.com/konklone>
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Joseph Birr-Pixton
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Yoav Nir
- [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Erik Nygren
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Nick Harper
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Michael Ströder
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Will Serumgard
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Henrick Hellström
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ira McDonald
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Christian Huitema
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dave Kern
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Vlad Krasnov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Deb Cooley
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Vlad Krasnov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eftychios Theodorakis
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Vlad Krasnov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Adrian
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Kazuho Oku
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Woodhouse
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Melinda Shore
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Victor Vasiliev
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ira McDonald
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Judson Wilson
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Vlad Krasnov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Steven Valdez
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Filippo Valsorda
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Mark Nottingham
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* darin.pettis
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* =JeffH
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Short, Todd
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Sean Leonard
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Woodhouse
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Scott Schmit
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dan Brown
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Timothy Jackson
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Raja ashok
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Matt Caswell
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Thomas Pornin
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Maarten Bodewes
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Rob Stradling
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* darin.pettis
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Aaron Zauner
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Patrick McManus
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Scott Schmit
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Scott Schmit
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Karthik Bhargavan
- [TLS] closing thread -> Re: Confirming consensus:… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Mohan Sekar
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Joseph Salowey