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Re: [TLS] The future of external PSK in TLS 1.3

Achim Kraus <achimkraus@gmx.net> Tue, 22 September 2020 05:21 UTC

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To: Pascal Urien <pascal.urien@gmail.com>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, tls@ietf.org
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From: Achim Kraus <achimkraus@gmx.net>
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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 07:21:45 +0200
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/TCZIm4tUz71Kc1a5Z65kH2RegiM>
Subject: Re: [TLS] The future of external PSK in TLS 1.3
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Hi Pascal,

 > But what about heath devices, autonomous cars, nuclear plants,
 > blockchain transfers ?. Maybe, they are not in the IoT scope...

Agreed. Therefore I wrote

 >> Isn't it always a question of what to protect in which environment?

Maybe, one column with recommended (Y/N/<blank>), is not enough.

##############################
Note

     If an item is not marked as "Recommended", it does not
     necessarily mean that it is flawed; rather, it indicates that
     the item either has not been through the IETF consensus process,
     has limited applicability, or is intended only for specific use
     cases
##############################

best regards
Achim

Am 21.09.20 um 22:57 schrieb Pascal Urien:
> Hi Achim
>
> Your local network "light bulb" is likely not a big issue
>
> But what about heath devices, autonomous cars, nuclear plants,
> blockchain transfers ?. Maybe, they are not in the IoT scope...
>
> Best Regards
>
> Pascal
>
>
> Le lun. 21 sept. 2020 à 19:57, Achim Kraus <achimkraus@gmx.net
> <mailto:achimkraus@gmx.net>> a écrit :
>
>     Hi Pascal,
>
>     that using these ISO 7816 card is fast and save, doesn't say too much
>     about the use-case without that card, or? For sure, there are
>     micro-controller, which are also equipped with hw-ecc or hw-rsa. And
>     there are more secure-devices protecting credentials. But there are also
>     still ones without.
>     I'm not sure, if I want spend too much money in my local network "light
>     bulb". Isn't it always a question of what to protect in which
>     environment?
>
>     best regards
>     Achim
>
>     Am 21.09.20 um 14:53 schrieb Pascal Urien:
>      > tls-se memory footprint is
>      > flash 《 40KB
>      > ram   《 1KB
>      >
>      > time to open a tls session 1.4 seconds
>      >
>      >
>      > Le lun. 21 sept. 2020 à 14:47, Pascal Urien
>     <pascal.urien@gmail.com <mailto:pascal.urien@gmail.com>
>      > <mailto:pascal.urien@gmail.com <mailto:pascal.urien@gmail.com>>>
>     a écrit :
>      >
>      >     hi Hannes
>      >
>      >     no openssl or wolfssl are used as client in order to check
>      >     interoperability with tls-se server
>      >
>      >     tls-se is of course a specific implémentation for tls13 server in
>      >     javacard..it is written in java but an ôter implémentation is
>      >     written in c for constraint notes. as written in the draft tls-se
>      >     implementation has three software blocks: crypto lib, tls state
>      >     machine, and tls lib
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >     Le lun. 21 sept. 2020 à 14:36, Hannes Tschofenig
>      >     <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>> a écrit :
>      >
>      >         Hi Pascal, ____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         are you saying that the stack on the secure element uses
>     WolfSSL
>      >         or OpenSSL? I am sure that WolfSSL works well but for
>     code size
>      >         reasons I doubt OpenSSL is possible. Can you confirm? ____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         In case of WolfSSL, you have multiple options for
>     credentials,
>      >         including plain PSK, PSK-ECDHE, raw public keys, and
>      >         certificates as I noted in my mail to the UTA list: ____
>      >
>      >
>     https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/uta/RJ4wU77D6f7qslfwrc16jkrPTew/____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         Ciao____
>      >
>      >         Hannes____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         *From:* Pascal Urien <pascal.urien@gmail.com
>     <mailto:pascal.urien@gmail.com>
>      >         <mailto:pascal.urien@gmail.com
>     <mailto:pascal.urien@gmail.com>>>
>      >         *Sent:* Monday, September 21, 2020 2:01 PM
>      >         *To:* Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
>      >         <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>>
>      >         *Cc:* Filippo Valsorda <filippo@ml.filippo.io
>     <mailto:filippo@ml.filippo.io>
>      >         <mailto:filippo@ml.filippo.io
>     <mailto:filippo@ml.filippo.io>>>; tls@ietf.org <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:tls@ietf.org <mailto:tls@ietf.org>>
>      >         *Subject:* Re: [TLS] The future of external PSK in TLS
>     1.3____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         Hi Hannes____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         Yes it has been tested with several  3.04 Javacards
>      >         commercially available____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         In the draft
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-urien-tls-se-00
>      >           Section 5-ISO 7816 Use Case, the exchanges are done
>     with the
>      >         existing implementation____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         TLS-SE TLS1.3 PSK+ECDH server works with ESP8266 or
>      >         Arduino+Ethernet boards ____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         For client software we use OPENSSL or WolfSSL____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         Pascal____
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         __ __
>      >
>      >         Le lun. 21 sept. 2020 à 12:35, Hannes Tschofenig
>      >         <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>> a
>      >         écrit :____
>      >
>      >             Hi Pascal,
>      >
>      >             Thanks for the pointer to the draft.
>      >
>      >             Since I am surveying implementations for the update
>     of RFC
>      >             7925 (see
>      > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-uta-tls13-iot-profile/)
>      >             I was wondering whether there is an implementation of
>     this
>      >             approach.
>      >
>      >             Ciao
>      >             Hannes
>      >
>      >
>      >             From: Pascal Urien <pascal.urien@gmail.com
>     <mailto:pascal.urien@gmail.com>
>      >             <mailto:pascal.urien@gmail.com
>     <mailto:pascal.urien@gmail.com>>>
>      >             Sent: Monday, September 21, 2020 11:44 AM
>      >             To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
>      >             <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>>
>      >             Cc: Filippo Valsorda <filippo@ml.filippo.io
>     <mailto:filippo@ml.filippo.io>
>      >             <mailto:filippo@ml.filippo.io
>     <mailto:filippo@ml.filippo.io>>>; tls@ietf.org <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
>      >             <mailto:tls@ietf.org <mailto:tls@ietf.org>>
>      >             Subject: Re: [TLS] The future of external PSK in TLS 1.3
>      >
>      >             Hi All
>      >
>      >             Here is an example of PSK+ECDHE for IoT
>      >
>      > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-urien-tls-se-00  uses
>      >             TLS1.3 server  PSK+ECDHE for secure elements
>      >
>      >             The security level in these devices is as high as EAL5+
>      >
>      >             The computing time is about 1.4s for a PSK+ECDHE session
>      >             (AES-128-CCM, + secp256r1)
>      >
>      >             The real critical resource is the required RAM size, less
>      >             than 1KB in our experiments
>      >
>      >             The secure element  only needs a classical TCP/IP
>     interface
>      >             (i.e. sockets like)
>      >
>      >             Trusted PSK should avoid selfie attacks
>      >
>      >             Pascal
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      >             Le lun. 21 sept. 2020 à 11:29, Hannes Tschofenig
>      >             <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
>      >             <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com
>     <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>> a écrit :
>      >             Hi Filippo,
>      >
>      >             • Indeed, if the SCADA industry has a particular
>     need, they
>      >             should profile TLS for use in that industry, and not
>     require
>      >             we change the recommendation for the open Internet.
>      >
>      >             We have an IoT profile for TLS and it talks about the
>     use of
>      >             PSK, see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7925
>      >
>      >             On the “open Internet” (probably referring to the Web
>     usage)
>      >             you are not going to use PSKs in TLS. There is a separate
>      >             RFC that provides recommendations for that
>     environmnent, see
>      >             RFC 752. That RFC is currently being revised, see
>      > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sheffer-uta-rfc7525bis/
>      >
>      >             Ciao
>      >             Hannes
>      >
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