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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: Christopher Patton <cpatton=40cloudflare.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Christian
 Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [TLS] TLS ECH, how much can the hint stick out?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/F8ZOzr7Y_GdoSh99-9DUGqUq3V8>
Subject: Re: [TLS] TLS ECH, how much can the hint stick out?
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This is primarily an active attack, but not purely so.  Clearly the MITM =
is an active attacker, but there are situations in QUIC (and DTLS, I =
presume) where a ClientHello gets retransmitted.  Depending on server =
infrastructure, the client might get two different responses.  This =
isn=E2=80=99t limited to cases where the observer/attacker is the one =
performing the replay.

=20

So I think we need to decide whether it=E2=80=99s a goal that, given =
that relatively narrow situation, the observer shouldn=E2=80=99t be able =
to identify ECH acceptance by comparing two ServerHellos that both =
respond to the same ClientHello.

=20

From: TLS <tls-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Christopher Patton
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2020 2:23 PM
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: tls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] TLS ECH, how much can the hint stick out?

=20

Hi Christian, Hi list,=20

=20

The "don't stick out" property is a steganographic security goal: we =
want the "real" protocol, i.e. TLS with ECH acceptance, to be =
indistinguishable from the "cover" protocol, i.e., the handshake pattern =
in which the client sends a "dummy" ECH extension that is ignored or =
rejected by the server. This is a property that TLS was never designed =
to have, but it seems that we need some degree of it in order to deploy =
ECH. The fundamental question that Christian raises is what is the right =
threat model for this property.

=20

The "status quo" threat model considers a distinguisher that is strictly =
passive---it does not interfere with a handshake or probe the =
server---and that does not know the ECH configuration. This seems (to =
me, at least) sufficient to account for middleboxes that might ossify on =
the ECH extension. It also seems achievable, both by the ECH as it is =
and for the proposed change.

=20

The distinguishing attacks described by Christian are much stronger, in =
the sense that they involve an active attacker. I don't believe there is =
any way of implementing ECH---either as it is or with the proposed =
change---that defeats active attacks in general. In particular---and as =
Christian points out---an active attacker can probe the server to learn =
the ECH configuration (via the ECH retry logic), which it can use to =
easily distinguish the real protocol from the cover protocol. This works =
regardless of whether the change is adopted.

=20

In my view, achieving don't-stick-out-security against active attackers =
requires us to revisit the design of ECH altogether. The main difficulty =
is that client-facing servers publish the ECH configuration in a way =
that's easily accessible to an active attacker. Keeping the =
configuration secret may provide a way to achieve security, and some =
deployments might opt to do this; but the vast majority won't. We might =
consider adding support for this deployment scenario, but this can (and =
should, I think) wait for a later draft.

=20

That said, it is worth considering mitigations against known attacks, in =
particualr (1). I think the suggestion for mitigating (2) adds too much =
complexity, and if it doesn't fully address the intended threat model (I =
don't think it does), then we'll likely need to replace it in the =
future. I think it's better to keep things simple until we fully address =
the intended threat model.

=20

Best,

Chris P.


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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This is primarily an active attack, but not purely =
so.=C2=A0 Clearly the MITM is an active attacker, but there are =
situations in QUIC (and DTLS, I presume) where a ClientHello gets =
retransmitted.=C2=A0 Depending on server infrastructure, the client =
might get two different responses.=C2=A0 This isn=E2=80=99t limited to =
cases where the observer/attacker is the one performing the =
replay.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So I think we need to decide whether it=E2=80=99s a =
goal that, given that relatively narrow situation, the observer =
shouldn=E2=80=99t be able to identify ECH acceptance by comparing two =
ServerHellos that both respond to the same ClientHello.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> TLS =
&lt;tls-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Christopher =
Patton<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 8, 2020 2:23 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
Christian Huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
tls@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TLS] TLS ECH, how much can the hint =
stick out?<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Christian, Hi list, <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The &quot;don't stick out&quot; property is a =
steganographic security goal: we want the &quot;real&quot; protocol, =
i.e. TLS with ECH acceptance, to be indistinguishable from the =
&quot;cover&quot; protocol, i.e., the handshake pattern in which the =
client sends a &quot;dummy&quot; ECH extension that is ignored or =
rejected by the server. This is a property that TLS was never designed =
to have, but it seems that we need some degree of it in order to deploy =
ECH. The fundamental question that Christian raises is what is the right =
threat model for this property.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The &quot;status quo&quot; threat model considers a =
distinguisher that is strictly passive---it does not interfere with a =
handshake or probe the server---and that does not know the ECH =
configuration. This seems (to me, at least) sufficient to account for =
middleboxes that might ossify on the ECH extension. It also seems =
achievable, both by the ECH as it is and for the proposed =
change.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The distinguishing attacks described by Christian are =
much stronger, in the sense that they involve an active attacker. I =
don't believe there is any way of implementing ECH---either as it is or =
with the proposed change---that defeats active attacks in general. In =
particular---and as Christian points out---an active attacker can probe =
the server to learn the ECH configuration (via the ECH retry logic), =
which it can use to easily distinguish the real protocol from the cover =
protocol. This works regardless of whether the change is =
adopted.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In my view, achieving don't-stick-out-security against =
active attackers requires us to revisit the design of ECH altogether. =
The main difficulty is that client-facing servers publish the ECH =
configuration in a way that's easily accessible to an active attacker. =
Keeping the configuration secret may provide a way to achieve security, =
and some deployments might opt to do this; but the vast majority won't. =
We might consider adding support for this deployment scenario, but this =
can (and should, I think) wait for a later =
draft.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>That said, it is worth considering mitigations against =
known attacks, in particualr (1). I think the suggestion for mitigating =
(2) adds too much complexity, and if it doesn't fully address the =
intended threat model (I don't think it does), then we'll likely need to =
replace it in the future. I think it's better to keep things simple =
until we fully address the intended threat =
model.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Best,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris =
P.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>
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