Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-scsv-03.txt> (TLS Fallback Signaling Cipher Suite Value (SCSV) for Preventing Protocol Downgrade Attacks) to Proposed Standard
mrex@sap.com (Martin Rex) Thu, 22 January 2015 06:11 UTC
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To: Bodo Moeller <bmoeller@acm.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 07:11:32 +0100
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From: mrex@sap.com
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Subject: Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-scsv-03.txt> (TLS Fallback Signaling Cipher Suite Value (SCSV) for Preventing Protocol Downgrade Attacks) to Proposed Standard
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Bodo Moeller wrote: > > If even just a *single* high-value site that you, personally, use does > support the SCSV, you'll benefit from the SCSV (provided that you're using > a browser that does a downgrade dance for compatibility with other servers > and sends the SCSV in downgraded Client Hello messages). I've been looking long and hard, but I'm having difficulties to see a noticable benefit. OK, a Poodle demonstration of the CBC padding weakness will no longer work, and maybe a minor fraction of the script kiddies will spend their time on other activities. But for the security of the typical web browser, and I'm not currently aware of any TLS clients other than web browsers that are doing downgrade dances. I'm not seeing a measurable benefit from fallback-scsv. The real problem, that is a prerequisite to Browser attacks like Poodle (and BEAST and CRIME predecessors) are 1) a browsers aggressive willingness to execute *ANYTHING* from *ANYWHERE* that looks like active content 2) provisioning of a cross-site-request-forgery (CSRF) facility, where the browser will share/insert the user's authentication credentials into *EVERY* GET/POST, irrespective where that request originates For a number of sites, being able to perform crafted GETs and POSTs, for which the browser will automatically provide/perform the authentication on behalf of the user, will provide ample room to cause trouble or damage to the end user. No existing nor future TLS protocol version and no existing or future TLS cipher suites can prevent exploitation of such a Browser (mis)feature. A single Poodle attack on a browser requires the attacker to be on-path between browser and server, for which the attacker intends to recover the users basic authentication credentials or SSL session cookie through repeated guessing -- and to perform active attacks on thousands of network connections between browser and server, creating thousands of otherwise quite rare TLS MAC errors in the server's logfile. When (ab)using the browsers CSRF facility directly, rather than for noisy and boring Poodle, it will be sufficient to piggy-back one single arbitrary page that the user's browsers happens to load (or can be lured to load). When properly done, the attack will be indistinguishable from a genuine action of the user for the server, and be noticable for the user only by forensic inspection. The browser's CSRF facility may even allow (ab)use of TLS PSK credentials or TLS client certificates, a form of credential that can not be attacked/recovered by Poodle. Attacking an *arbitrary* page is still quite trivial depressingly often, because so many sites force their users to use plaintext HTTP for at least parts of their stuff -- effectively throwing all security overboard each time. lots of online shops. a popular auction site. Today I visited the site of a popular video/phone/chat software. Even when accessing their site via https: the "Sign in" and "Join us" URLs (at the upper right of all pages of the site) will _force_ the user through plaintext-HTTP. The link to their Download section is https, but in the download section, the actual green software download button, again, forces you through plaintext-HTTP -- OUCH! -Martin
- [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-scsv-0… The IESG
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yuhong Bao
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- [TLS] advertizing the minimum TLS supported versi… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] advertizing the minimum TLS supported v… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] advertizing the minimum TLS supported v… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Henrik Grubbström
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Henrik Grubbström
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Michael Clark
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Henrik Grubbström
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-downgrade-sc… Martin Rex