[TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation
Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> Wed, 15 January 2025 17:52 UTC
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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 09:51:51 -0800
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To: Quynh Dang <quynh97@gmail.com>
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Subject: [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation
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On Wed, Jan 15, 2025, 9:39 AM Quynh Dang <quynh97@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 11:40 AM D. J. Bernstein <djb@cr.yp.to> wrote: > >> Quynh Dang writes: >> > D. J. Bernstein <djb@cr.yp.to> wrote: >> > > Quynh Dang writes: >> > > > Any result will hurt one group (can't be both groups have what they >> > > > want). >> > > BCP 54: "IETF participants use their best engineering judgment to find >> > > the best solution for the whole Internet, not just the best solution >> for >> > > any particular network, technology, vendor, or user." >> > The key point in that policy is "the best solution for the whole >> Internet". >> > So, in my example, one group thinks A is the one and the other group >> thinks >> > B is the one. >> >> That wouldn't be a case of some group not getting what it wants. It >> would be everyone wanting what's best for the Internet, but not enough >> analysis having been carried out yet to know what that is. The usual way >> out of such cases is via a closer look at the engineering. >> >> The "not just" part of the above BCP 54 quote is recognizing that >> vendors have an incentive to push for what's best for those vendors. >> That's a much more obvious reason for conflicts---and if one starts by >> thinking of IETF as a way to manage conflicts of vendor interests then >> votes might seem to be a natural way to make decisions. But the policy >> is saying that IETF's goal is instead to do what's best from an >> engineering perspective for the Internet as a whole. >> > > As discussed previously, "what's best from an engineering perspective", is > there the decision maker such as a judge to say A is the right one, not B > or give a verdict such as this patent covers this, but not that ? That is > why the IETF requires "rough" consensus. > > >> Votes don't help the engineering process; they disrupt it. Voting is not >> how IETF is supposed to work in the first place. As Dave Clark famously >> said in https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/24.pdf: "We reject: kings, >> presidents and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code." > > > I have not advocated against "rough consensus". > > The problem is that "rough consensus" is so broadly or vaguely defined. > So consensus calls can be made based on inconsistent "policies" or "unknown > rules/policies" and many people might feel that they are treated unfairly > in many consensus calls and they could have a question in their head: why > did the chairs do that to me ? So the problem makes the job of the chairs > so hard and stressful. > > Defining a minimum percentage of votes to have the consensus would take > care of the problem and the chairs at the IETF would love that. > That's not something the *TLS* working group can do. I'm also not sure it's the contributor to the issues with the tone on the mailing list that would justify this massive deviation from the historical process. > Regards, > Quynh. > > >> >> ---D. J. Bernstein >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list -- tls@ietf.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to tls-leave@ietf.org >> > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list -- tls@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to tls-leave@ietf.org >
- [TLS] Changing WG Mail List Reputation Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Arnaud Taddei
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation David Benjamin
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Tim Hollebeek
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Bob Beck
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Joseph Salowey
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Joseph Salowey
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Dang, Quynh H. (Fed)
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Bob Beck
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation John Levine
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Dennis Jackson
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Ted Lemon
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Tim Hollebeek
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Tim Bray
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Ted Lemon
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Roman Danyliw
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Quynh Dang