Return-Path: X-Original-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org Delivered-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4BFE8BED50 for ; Mon, 4 May 2026 06:50:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ietf.org; s=ietf1; t=1777902659; bh=WwTkYFIM8a8t+ERM8c6t9hpJsAn1rOMl3tsIYip1Dmc=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=tIEYL0AD2FIEl1qu08c35WoYC8+8s3UbeDy5UH/ybDGTzhOz6mUcmXfjYULf6Sse1 JyzW4BzmfTZAYpn6Dxmp19sgXODtIf0It2SxRNpa1VNRUo2FSm7nEcoWzooO64Okly 82EyWSXCHsZpUGutiUk5mW7TL4ruXjlVth/DS/tA= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.801 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.801 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=appelbaum.net Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cWjbNXZ9bxsv for ; Mon, 4 May 2026 06:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc4:8::223]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E1E1E8BED3A for ; Mon, 4 May 2026 06:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BCD462007F; Mon, 4 May 2026 13:50:49 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=appelbaum.net; s=gm1; t=1777902650; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=9pIj0G7Wmd4SSxk1HGnq874OUa3d5PFJARo2ysd2kYg=; b=n7jKcHEuSHQq1tIloUir8/+R62uv7y041lvib684B2GWZklrffsHxrzO4tzDQUKEbPwLo2 v7SHYfdBSHXwOkSCr/BwJBu2/P5dbsLiC5J0jh5xeHS/FGFNkDs4SXSmW+5LCgHfvgfnuk J5moQyNwzhirMo165/ZEeQJPxmKCOm+jZxQ1PiKqaAAIbPBSEsWBkhkmvbCjxsZZb4KhEO 3clU+rRQi4PtwoOZLTCuxlpJLiaddaYuzC/MIMXzJZj3pQAdsf6bh9fxOn/+g5lLZPOxOY BbPEw8rI3rQK+0RoIXIZLuUo6eyj9tTH8M6ZU1Ya0vW+rPISJOmF6fZfwQMkcQ== Message-ID: <683ee377-6d9c-49ad-b4cc-962afaa1388d@appelbaum.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 2026 15:25:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Salz, Rich" , Muhammad Usama Sardar , Ilari Liusvaara References: <90f2c421-9398-494a-8940-44fea9e991f4@tu-dresden.de> <6acf7e19-c63b-4c1c-91ff-76c032e975e8@tu-dresden.de> <085d1e36-ca09-43d7-b7c5-2b320d53ed1e@tu-dresden.de> Content-Language: en-US From: Jacob Appelbaum Autocrypt: addr=jacob@appelbaum.net; 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Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Hi Rich, On 5/4/26 15:00, Salz, Rich wrote: > * I had sincerely proposed what I believe is a good middle ground to > move on. WG is free to trash my proposal. > > Okay then. Your proposal is not a middle ground. What are the sides from your perspective and what would be a middle ground if not this? > It says that hybrids are better. When better is defined as "two hard problems are more secure than one maybe hard problem" or "one new failure cannot result in a practical break of the protocol" then it follows that hybrids are better. If we're not talking about "better" in the context of security but byte overhead or energy efficiency, then we'd need some other definitions for the word better, I suppose. > > I still maintain that a document that defines A is not the place for > an A compared-to B comparison. Where should it go if not there? If it should go somewhere else, would a reference to that other place also be wrong? > From the mailing list traffic, several other long-timers agree with that. > This reads as an appeal to authority over a reasonable analysis that is related to Usama's formal proof. I do not find it compelling and it appears as dismissive to Usama's efforts. What's the constructive counter proposal other than writing as if hybrids don't exist or that PQC without a hybrid construction isn't a novel risk? Long-timers can be wrong and given the Dual_EC history and various related drafts, they might even be wrong twice for the concerns raised by Usama and others. Kind regards, Jacob Appelbaum