Re: [TLS] TLS@IETF101 Agenda Posted

nalini elkins <> Wed, 14 March 2018 23:32 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A0F12DA02 for <>; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:32:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.599
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ebu48TZDPd99 for <>; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:32:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CEE412DA08 for <>; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:32:26 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by with SMTP id v6so6368715iog.7 for <>; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:32:26 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=awW/XThU4SzonTBcS77sYTMKPFycJt9YhIV5v53wuno=; b=ZO33b/DeqBfZ5wu7iwBNOleqFKFr7l4jmyV0xJ1MHXIAsivEw0vP8actiytDgNzytr zt6YVf435Nao2jD7YYnBu4epjHEEKR/aG6iGiFoiT2qSIyJPDTYSUNYm8R46SLMQN4Dy PEiA6LjI0Bmdq75o6Vi0coISmLgNtKlPy+zTM3k2VIRU4WmsyAxBJXN0L1BGX04Mylan LvSvZAtGsdLQ0qxt6ToVtmT0MmA89ZCjiaXy9FP/U/nrBrHcDRNqEX4YJX4UAdm/DGZV N/SW2JZc+SWOZUYVljEuyVRwtkHdGZWTDtcxhsv4Qmof8GX1hbnKxKLaogW5mb70pWqr q+ZQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=awW/XThU4SzonTBcS77sYTMKPFycJt9YhIV5v53wuno=; b=b2OlQcA4WuEWWV6VnpE94cm+QZvNUXlEMltQ4S5lumS8uMWqPM8s5uACJbVd9PZRff VgxJ9Cq325q9QJ4W2DKmuy+dhnr8dHIpy2bP4v8c/7mxrLbTQmKfGx5MRipcRl166F8h mkItU8qVJRCPQMZ7gbP2U3PB5b7jRQgvxNxpJ3ohA//oZY4xewKErEXiJFGLMf/YoCmw BlU44xYOf+1fUgJh7/fx6GHVlsZyAo2qrwybH3jWQUQOvRuel31TnCyUfV9MqeOc8t1w Diz5l//WKn+NAv7+sGEMcXqa24wmzm7hcNaPVMxluh3SZKFlzwaBXJs5qJC6ieabP/G+ rZrQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7F0lwc1+LjP9/XhCI0qiFPHLczC1qMLgft3RK0rJLpGLE4XrB3j KURD1k9OkkotO29gJM9CYGq85K2l+uM8Ssn/AhgSPQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELvGYoNnak0JG1C8zYjD9AJFHmYwdvT/4RXQh02m2zkUWMfrHmoNv6ZhU6sM6cdlvZnB/StpkBS+Q5/2t/Vx/1k=
X-Received: by with SMTP id h69mr6608680ioh.209.1521070345487; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:32:25 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by with HTTP; Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:32:25 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <>
References: <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
From: nalini elkins <>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 16:32:25 -0700
Message-ID: <>
To: Stephen Farrell <>
Cc: Artyom Gavrichenkov <>, "<>" <>, Benjamin Kaduk <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140f5e69f1f88056767c987"
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [TLS] TLS@IETF101 Agenda Posted
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 23:32:31 -0000


>So it doesn't really help the discussion to claim that
>such-and-such a (set of person(s) is/are good actors - we do
>assume that, but also that there are others who would like
>the same changes to happen who do not share the IETF's goals
>of making Internet security better as far as we can.

You know, I actually find myself in agreement with some of your points (not

I lived for a number of years in a country which was a military
dictatorship with no freedom of speech.  I am well aware of what some
people who want to hang on to power at all costs and place no value on
human life are prepared to do to others.  And, their power can be
multiplied and further weaponized with the Internet.

I know that you and many others in the TLS WG are saying what you are
saying because you are trying to protect others who cannot protect
themselves.   I know.  I respect that.  I spent two of the happiest years
of my life in sub-saharan Africa in the Peace Corps.  I totally get the
point of view of trying to help people and keep them safe.

But, it is a very difficult issue.   If I can use a different analogy, if
the City of Monterey built a new sewer system and told me that to connect
to it, I had to build a new house, I would scream!

TLS is used in many, many places.  The Internet is critical to the
businesses of the world.   You can't just say use something other than
TLS.   Or don't use the Internet.  It's not so easy.

I wish we could actually talk to each other quietly and reasonably.  This
is a very, very difficult problem.


On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:16 PM, Stephen Farrell <>

> On 14/03/18 23:00, nalini elkins wrote:
> > The simple explanation is that people think they will have serious
> > issues with TLS1.3 and actually, TLS1.2 when it is DH only.
> Of course some people who are used to MitMing connections will
> have problems and will have to change.
> But that does not mean that their problems ought to be solved
> by any change to TLS.
> IMO the costs to the broader Internet of breaking TLS like that
> are far too high to optimse for these folks. It's understandable
> that they'd prefer otherwise.
> People with such problems should IMO look elsewhere for
> solutions and not be fixated on breaking TLS.
> Lastly, bear in mind that even if the people with whom you
> are dealing have the best intentions, there really are people
> who are paid large amounts of money to weaken Internet security
> (see [1] for scant detail of just one country's efforts in
> that regard) and that we have IETF consensus to oppose such
> efforts, as far as it's in the IETF's remit to do so.
> So it doesn't really help the discussion to claim that
> such-and-such a (set of person(s) is/are good actors - we do
> assume that, but also that there are others who would like
> the same changes to happen who do not share the IETF's goals
> of making Internet security better as far as we can.
> S.
> [1]

Nalini Elkins
Enterprise Data Center Operators