[TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantum Key Agreement for TLS 1.3
"D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to> Thu, 03 April 2025 16:19 UTC
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Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2025 16:18:57 -0000
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From: "D. J. Bernstein" <djb@cr.yp.to>
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Subject: [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantum Key Agreement for TLS 1.3
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Yaakov Stein writes: > Any IPR that can be asserted against Kyber can be asserted against > already adopted hybrid methods incorporating Kyber. I agree. I think the chairs have caused some confusion by highlighting patent issues in the call for adoption---was it not already obvious that the hybrid issue was the most important one to highlight? On the other hand, patents also seem relevant to a preliminary step that has been skipped here, namely identifying why the proposal is claimed to be adding something important. The draft's motivation sentence consists of rearranging buzzwords without answering the question: Having a fully post-quantum (not hybrid) key agreement option for TLS 1.3 is necessary for migrating beyond hybrids and for users that need to be fully post-quantum. https://www.schneier.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/paper-ipsec.pdf explained a long time ago how "adding features, options, and additional flexibility to satisfy various factions within the committee"---rather than focusing on security---tends to damage security. This was finally taken into account in TLS 1.3, which removed many TLS 1.2 options. So there should be an explanation of why the currently proposed option has security benefits outweighing the costs of extra options. Yes, there's a quantum threat to be handled, but a non-hybrid Kyber draft isn't doing any better at that than the existing hybrid Kyber. If the claim is that adding a no-seatbelts option will improve applicability, then this claim should be backed up by an applicability analysis; but an applicability analysis certainly shouldn't ignore known patents. > If anything, one may attempt to argue that hybrids do not implement > NIST's MLKEM scheme > and are thus not covered by the NIST licenses. Hmmm. I'd think that such an argument would have to be backed up by a pointer to license text that would allow _some_ types of applications of ML-KEM, while excluding others, and in particular excluding hybrids. I've looked at https://web.archive.org/web/20240331123147/https://csrc.nist.gov/csrc/media/Projects/post-quantum-cryptography/documents/selected-algos-2022/nist-pqc-license-summary-and-excerpts.pdf and don't see how any of the text there would support such an argument. NIST hasn't posted the complete signed licenses, and it's certainly possible that there's something problematic hidden there, but this isn't an argument against hybrids: hidden text could just as easily be a problem for non-hybrids. ---D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Thom Wiggers
- [TLS] WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantum Ke… Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Russ Housley
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Rebecca Guthrie
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Sun Shuzhou
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Martin Thomson
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Yaakov Stein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… David Adrian
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… tirumal reddy
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-… Yaakov Stein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Joseph Birr-Pixton
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Boring cryptography, and the opposite extre… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Boring cryptography, and the opposite e… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Boring cryptography, and the opposite e… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Flo D
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Andrey Jivsov
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Benjamin Kaduk
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Nico Williams
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Nico Williams
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Flo D
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… David Adrian
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Flo D
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: Boring cryptography, and the … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Nico Williams
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Nico Williams
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Ca… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Ca… Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Benjamin Kaduk
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Nico Williams
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… Andrey Jivsov
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM P… S Moonesamy
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… S Moonesamy
- [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantu… Sean Turner