Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cipher suites (was: Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA should die)
Daniel Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.net> Mon, 13 April 2015 20:45 UTC
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Subject: Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cipher suites (was: Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA should die)
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On Mon 2015-04-13 14:55:05 -0400, Ilari Liusvaara wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 02:29:49PM -0400, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote: > >> What do you think an implementation should do when a peer tries to >> negotiate the combination above? Require an RSA-PSS signature from the >> server over some material derived in part from the PSK key agreement >> mechanism? > > To me it seems like that combo is quite insecure, unless one handles it as > a special case (in which case it is just equivalent to PSK in security, > just wastes time with a certificate). Can you explain why it's "quite insecure"? It doesn't seem any worse than normal (non-DHE) PSK other than the cost of signing and verifying. I suppose that it also proves that an attacker has access to both the PSK and the secret key material belonging to the cert. So, for example, you could give a dozen clients the same PSK (maybe to provide them with indistinguishability from each other to a network observer?), but clients that want to be sure they're talking to the server (instead of each other) can rely on the server's cert. > As list, the key exchange methods TLS v1.2 actually supports (after merging > some non-significant distinctions) are: > - RSA [going away] > - RSA_EXPORT [you have deimplemented this already, right?] > - DH_CERT [going away] > - DHE_CERT [supported] > - DHE_ANON [???] > - KRB5 [going away] > - PSK [???] > - DHE_PSK [???] > - RSA_PSK [going away] > - SRP [???] > - SRP_CERT [???] I think this list mixes up key exchange with authentication, which was what Dave was trying to tease apart. For key exchange, there is no difference between DHE_CERT and DHE_ANON and DHE_PSK -- they're all DHE. the ANON/CERT/PSK parts would be negotiated separately in the authentication side of things (via the signature_algorithms extension). (And if we're using supported_groups, the distinctions between different flavors of DHE (FFDHE2048, ECDHEP256, ECDHEX25519, etc) are hardly non-significant, but i guess that's a slightly different discussion.) --dkg
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Dave Garrett
- [TLS] DSA should die Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Aaron Zauner
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Stephen Checkoway
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Tom Ritter
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die CodesInChaos
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Joseph Salowey
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Michael StJohns
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Michael StJohns
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Sniffen
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Yoav Nir