Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice

Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> Sat, 05 December 2020 00:17 UTC

Return-Path: <nick@foobar.org>
X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2932A3A0EFB; Fri, 4 Dec 2020 16:17:54 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.892
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.892 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 65HQOSELMn0f; Fri, 4 Dec 2020 16:17:48 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [46.182.8.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA60A3A0F35; Fri, 4 Dec 2020 16:17:46 -0800 (PST)
X-Envelope-To: last-call@ietf.org
Received: from crumpet.local (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 0B4NrnXt001973 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Dec 2020 23:53:51 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org)
X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.local
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: "Ackermann, Michael" <MAckermann@bcbsm.com>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
References: <160496076356.8063.5138064792555453422@ietfa.amsl.com> <SN6PR02MB45129E647485BA5794D5CF4EC3F20@SN6PR02MB4512.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <MWHPR02MB2464CD5D5B7568E9EAC58B26D6F20@MWHPR02MB2464.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <DM6PR14MB3178EC0521427BF7C3523CACD7F10@DM6PR14MB3178.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <CAChr6SzvQK+exfgYEwfVNknMjr-Y-UJ4A7k0DkOkL9wmLQ84aQ@mail.gmail.com> <MWHPR02MB246499F35613820D45EB55AAD6F10@MWHPR02MB2464.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <DM6PR14MB3178A0C152A746E41C6A01C6D7F10@DM6PR14MB3178.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <f8486514-9726-68d0-2bc8-dccd4293017e@cs.tcd.ie> <DM6PR14MB317843CA2B3D67F6660F4F0DD7F10@DM6PR14MB3178.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <127BB8C9-679E-48C1-8617-C6092AEE9914@fugue.com> <DM6PR14MB3178C1F8B6E4FD6E9FD9C8C4D7F10@DM6PR14MB3178.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <8E6EB6FF-E83B-44B5-A0A2-7499678DC6B6@fugue.com> <DM6PR14MB317817FD62369A8E0FF93CA8D7F10@DM6PR14MB3178.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <77363965-99A5-4790-B40B-011827C8D113@fugue.com>
From: Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org>
Message-ID: <251c6be9-ce1b-b358-0c72-03a61db5a60d@foobar.org>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 23:53:48 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.16; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/7.0.40
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <77363965-99A5-4790-B40B-011827C8D113@fugue.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/_YAZpVqzUGjkMk2FhotRuNXrs8o>
Subject: Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls/>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2020 00:17:54 -0000

Ted Lemon wrote on 04/12/2020 22:47:
> Why do people buy stuff that’s not upgradeable? Probably because the 
> manufacturer doesn’t give them a choice, and there’s no way to force the 
> choice. The recent discussions about legally requiring 
> firmware-upgradeable IoT devices (e.g. in Singapore) is definitely a 
> step in the right direction. For medical devices and medical 
> infrastructure, this should have been required, but as far as I know 
> still is not.

people don't necessarily buy stuff that's not ungradeable.  They buy 
stuff which has a support lifetime of finite duration.

Manufacturers have no incentive to continue to produce software updates 
for equipment which they stopped selling N years ago, yet the production 
lifetime of the product may well exceed the manufacturer's sales cycle 
for the device.  There aren't credible reasons to think that the problem 
of equipment obsolescence is something that can be fixed by the IETF.

This shouldn't stop the IETF from formally deprecating standards which 
are known to be dysfunctional.

Nick