Re: [TLS] (crypto agility may benefit from private extensions) Re: Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-iana-registry-updates
Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Tue, 20 March 2018 17:27 UTC
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 17:26:52 +0000
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To: Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com>
Cc: Sean Turner <sean@sn3rd.com>, "<tls@ietf.org>" <tls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] (crypto agility may benefit from private extensions) Re: Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-iana-registry-updates
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On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:06 PM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Eric: > > I may have an incorrect impression about the code points, but, let us say, > one finds out an attack on one of the TLS1.3 algorithms and wishes to swap > the algorithm set for a new one (that is clearly specified, say, > "RS-Alg-X"). How does one do this if one marks 224-255 as deprecated. > I don't understand the question. There are plenty of other code points, we just no longer break them up into signature/hash pairs. > How does one signal private use of "RS-Alg-X" now. > You publish a specification that meets the specification bar and file for a code point. -Ekr > If you could tell me, please let me know, so that I feel more at ease with > this. {This should not be something where reliability is impossible to > achieve). > > Thanks! > > Rene > > > One further point brought out in discussions with Adam was that if we’re > really closing the HashAlgorithm and SignatureAlgorithms registry we need > to also mark 224-255 as deprecated. Currently these are marked as Reserved > for Private Use. So the question is should we mark 224-255 as deprecated > in these two registries? > > On 3/20/2018 10:54 AM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 2:51 PM, Rene Struik <rstruik.ext@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Sean: >> >> Quick question: does "closing the registry" not contradict catering >> towards crypto agility? What happens if, say, one wishes to add another >> signature scheme, besides Ed25519, to the mix. If there is no private >> field, does this mean that, e.g., Schnorr+BSI Brainpool256r1 is now ruled >> out? >> > > No. Private just means "we're not going to allocate these code points, so > you should use them without coordination". > > The key point here is that this is a big space and so we're instead going > to make it easy for people to reserve code points by writing a stable spec, > that need not be an IETF standard, and that's what they should do. > > > -Ekr > > >> >> My more serious concern is, however, that if the Private Use case is >> "verboten", there is no chance for people to signal private extensions >> (since IETF will just have killed this off). >> >> I do not think it is prudent to have a slow process in place (IETF >> standardization) to effectuate crypto agility, if private use can already >> do this without waiting for 3-year public discussions and heated debate (if >> a weakness is discovered, dark forces will exploit this right away and >> won't wait for IETF to catch up to exploit an issue). >> >> As case in point, suppose US Gov't wants to roll its own "Suite A" >> scheme, or if one wants to use TLS with something tailored towards the >> sensor world (which operates in quite a hostile environment for >> implementation security), how is one going to do this in context of TLS if >> the signaling required has just been removed? >> >> NOTE: this is not an invite for endless discussions on the legitimacy of >> whoever may wish a private extensions (it is private after all), it does >> question though the wisdom of removing the option for using this. If Zulu >> hour arrives, one should have tools to act... >> >> Best regards, Rene >> >> On 3/16/2018 10:01 AM, Sean Turner wrote: >> > During Adam Roach’s AD review of draft-ietf-tls-tls13, he noted >> something about the HashAlgorithm and that made me go look at what was said >> in draft-ietf-tls-iana-registry-updates. Turns out that 4492bis >> assigned some values draft-ietf-tls-iana-registry-updates was marking as >> reserved. I have fixed that up in: >> > https://github.com/tlswg/draft-ietf-tls-iana-registry-updates/pull/65 >> > >> > One further point brought out in discussions with Adam was that if >> we’re really closing the HashAlgorithm and SignatureAlgorithms registry we >> need to also mark 224-255 as deprecated. Currently these are marked as >> Reserved for Private Use. So the question is should we mark 224-255 as >> deprecated in these two registries? >> > >> > spt >> > _______________________________________________ >> > TLS mailing list >> > TLS@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> >> >> -- >> email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik >> cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 <%2B1%20%28647%29%20867-5658> | US: +1 (415) >> 690-7363 <%2B1%20%28415%29%20690-7363> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >> > > > -- > email: rstruik.ext@gmail.com | Skype: rstruik > cell: +1 (647) 867-5658 <(647)%20867-5658> | US: +1 (415) 690-7363 <(415)%20690-7363> > >
- [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-iana-… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Benjamin Kaduk
- [TLS] (crypto agility may benefit from private ex… Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] (crypto agility may benefit from privat… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] (crypto agility may benefit from privat… Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] (crypto agility may benefit from privat… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] (crypto agility may benefit from privat… Alex C
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Additional changes for draft-ietf-tls-i… Sean Turner