Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1)
Nicolas Williams <Nicolas.Williams@oracle.com> Mon, 10 May 2010 22:16 UTC
Return-Path: <Nicolas.Williams@oracle.com>
X-Original-To: tls@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF22F3A6931 for <tls@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 10 May 2010 15:16:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.083
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.083 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.026, BAYES_05=-1.11, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PZGpwY24mNz5 for <tls@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 10 May 2010 15:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com (rcsinet10.oracle.com [148.87.113.121]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7B53A6800 for <tls@ietf.org>; Mon, 10 May 2010 15:16:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o4AMGOLx020035 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 10 May 2010 22:16:27 GMT
Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o4AMGMlH002103; Mon, 10 May 2010 22:16:23 GMT
Received: from abhmt007.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 229325161273529737; Mon, 10 May 2010 15:15:37 -0700
Received: from oracle.com (/129.153.128.104) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 10 May 2010 15:15:36 -0700
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:15:32 -0500
From: Nicolas Williams <Nicolas.Williams@oracle.com>
To: Stefan Santesson <stefan@aaa-sec.com>
Message-ID: <20100510221531.GC9429@oracle.com>
References: <20100510213924.GY9429@oracle.com> <C80E5018.AB2B%stefan@aaa-sec.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <C80E5018.AB2B%stefan@aaa-sec.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2010-03-02)
X-Auth-Type: Internal IP
X-Source-IP: acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]
X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4BE885BC.0077:SCFMA922111,ss=1,fgs=0
Cc: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, tls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1)
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 22:16:45 -0000
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 12:06:48AM +0200, Stefan Santesson wrote: > On 10-05-10 11:39 PM, "Nicolas Williams" <Nicolas.Williams@oracle.com> > wrote: > >> On the last question I think the correct answer is: Yes it is possible to do > >> a variant of the protocol without a hash function but it does not make the > >> protocol any better. Rather it make it worse. Both in terms of functionality > >> and complexity. > > > > That's just a statement without an argument; I'm unconvinced. Convince > > us. If you can show that collisions don't result in failure to complete > > a TLS handshake successfully then all will be fine, so start there. > > Else I think you should explain how a collision-free protocol would be > > worse than the current proposal, then we could weigh the two approaches. > > Yeah I know, > > I was hoping I didn't have to since we have been through that debate > already. That's fine: I'd have accepted a URL to that debate. > If you force the Server to assign identifier you are adding complexity to > the protocol. The server now need to remember the relationship between > identifiers and objects instead of just calculating them when needed. The server sure could use a hash, leaving it to the operator to look for and address collisions. > It also limits functionality since the client now first have to ask each > server about their identifiers, store them (per server) and replay them to > the server. With a hash, the client can try caching directly without first > asking the server for it's identifiers as soon as the client have a guess > about the cached info (e.g. By pulling info from a repository) True! That's one thing I was looking for. It's more than enough for me to prefer the client-hashes approach to the server-assigns object IDs approach. > What if a collision occurs? > > That is pretty deterministic too. The server and the client may then agree > on a cached value by mistake. They will then go ahead and try to complete > the handshake with different opinions on a cached security critical value, > such as disagreeing about the server certificate chain. This will inevitably > lead to a handshake failure. That's what I thought. > Upon a failed cached handshake, the client and server tries a new handshake > without caching, updates it's cache and moves on with life. Well... Many applications might not. Can the handshake be retried transparently to the application? Or will the application have to close() its socket and re-connect()? > However, the risk that a 64 bit FNV will collide by mistake (not as a result > of a malicious attack) is so small that the risk inconvenience of a > collision is acceptable. > > Does this make any sense? Just a pair of questions left (see above). Nico --
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Robert Dugal
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Paul Hoffman
- [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1) Nicolas Williams
- [TLS] Nico's suggestions - Re: Consensus Call: FN… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re: Co… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1) Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Hovav Shacham
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Blumenthal, Uri - 0668 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Consensus Call: FNV vs SHA1 Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Nic… Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Nic… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Con… Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Con… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Consensus Call: FNV vs … Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Justification Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Justification Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Justification Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Justification Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] [POSSIBLE SPAM] Re: Collisions (Re: Con… Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Adam Langley
- [TLS] Use HTTP (Re: Justification) Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Justification Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Justification Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Justification Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Justification Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Justification Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Collisions (Re: Nico's suggestions - Re… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Justification Dean Anderson
- [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Justification Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Martin Rex
- [TLS] Possible alternative to current cached info… Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info (and PRF WTF) Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info (and PRF WTF) Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info (and PRF WTF) Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Kemp, David P.
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Wrapping up cached info Nicolas Williams