Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie
Ben Laurie <benl@google.com> Mon, 05 September 2016 18:25 UTC
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From: Ben Laurie <benl@google.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2016 19:25:39 +0100
Message-ID: <CABrd9STOCbBo=g22XySRnWofHwVZkrC-ripZY38yLRZV2kQh3A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Hilarie Orman <hilarie@purplestreak.com>
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Cc: cfrg@irtf.org, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie
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On 31 August 2016 at 20:48, Hilarie Orman <hilarie@purplestreak.com> wrote: > > From: Brian Sniffen <bsniffen@akamai.com> > > > >> From: Derek Atkins <derek@ihtfp.com> > > >> Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2016 10:17:25 -0400 > > > > > >> "Steven M. Bellovin" <smb@cs.columbia.edu> writes: > > > > > >> > Yes. To a large extent, the "IoT devices are too puny for real > > >> > crypto" is a hangover from several years ago. It was once true; > for > > >> > the most part, it isn't today, but people haven't flushed their > cache > > >> > from the old received wisdom. > > > > > >> This is certainly true for AES, mostly because many small chips are > > >> including AES accelerators in hardware. It's not quite true for > public > > >> key solutions; there are still very small devices where even ECC > takes > > >> too long (and yes, there are cases where 200-400ms is still too > long). > > > > > >> > It pays to look again at David Wagner's slides from 2005, on > sensor > > >> > nets and crypto: > > >> > https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~daw/talks/sens-oak05.pdf > > >> > > > > > > > Unattended sensors with wifi present an unsolved crypto problem. They > > > can last 10 years on an AA battery without crypto, probably well less > > > than a year if they have to do any kind of encryption. These things > > > will be everywhere, providing the data that will underly all kinds of > > > decision-making. > > > Assuming there are *some* integrity requirements for the data, and that > > they are deploying 32-bit ARM with AES support (stipulating that ~every > > CPU will have AES support in a few years, as ~every CPU sold does > > today), we're talking about *either* an ECDHE negotiation every few > > months or a pre-shared key, good for ten years. > > > AES-GCM with hardware support compares favorably to SHA-2 without > > hardware support, so if they've been able to last 10 years before, they > > should do just fine in the future. The old devices won't last forever, > > and probably can't run TLS 1.3---that's fine, TLS 1.2 will be with us > > for ten years after 1.3 is out. > > > -Brian > > > > Although much of the solution may lie in hardware innovation, the > > > world really does need minimal crypto algorithms. > > > > > > Hilarie > > > > > An ARM is far too much hardware to throw at "read sensor/munge data/send > data". > The question is not "how much hardware?" but "price?" - with ARMs including h/w AES coming in at $2 for a single unit, its hard to explain why you\d want to use a less powerful CPU... > > Hilarie > > _______________________________________________ > Cfrg mailing list > Cfrg@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/cfrg >
- [TLS] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie John Mattsson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie david wong
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ira McDonald
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Stanislav V. Smyshlyaev
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Karthikeyan Bhargavan
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie John Mattsson
- [TLS] (confusing the issues) Re: [Cfrg] 3DES died… Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] (confusing the issues) Re: [Cfrg] 3DES … Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Jon Callas
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: 3DES … Jon Callas
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: 3DES … Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] (confusing the issues) Re: 3DES … Greg Rose
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie David McGrew (mcgrew)
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Brian Sniffen
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Steven M. Bellovin
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] 3DES diediedie Richard Hartmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Hilarie Orman
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ben Laurie
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ira McDonald
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Philip Levis
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Joachim Strömbergson
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Richard Hartmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Derek Atkins
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] [Cfrg] 3DES diediedie Kyle Rose