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boundary="_000_DS0PR14MB64815A9AAF474078C9E8ADA4832D2DS0PR14MB6481namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: digicert.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DS0PR14MB6481.namprd14.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2a04f571-dc7e-462e-b63a-08dea0a59290 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Apr 2026 19:30:12.2162 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf813fa1-bde5-4e75-9479-f6aaa8b1f284 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: od+TZmxGkVKTCUevaoKYvtxVjMS2pUDo0eLKiI//R7cHOGSUjMe0XqjxGjmW/k1MrtC+M5WHS+QNvKK8zBPKGHmfwvTXlt6/HCrFW7jphvc= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LV8PR14MB7682 Message-ID-Hash: MZSUNVUM6JDMB4BV5IGBXGGKX5EZOXDK X-Message-ID-Hash: MZSUNVUM6JDMB4BV5IGBXGGKX5EZOXDK X-MailFrom: tim.hollebeek@digicert.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tls@ietf.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BTLS=5D_Re=3A_Working_Group_Last_Call_for_Use_of_ML-DSA_in_TLS_1?= =?utf-8?q?=2E3?= List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --_000_DS0PR14MB64815A9AAF474078C9E8ADA4832D2DS0PR14MB6481namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I strongly object to the suggestion that not enough time has been spent dis= cussing the advantages and disadvantages of hybrid vs non-hybrid authentica= tion (a rather bold claim at this point, after eight years of such discussi= ons!) or any suggestion that this process is moving too fast. I would like to remind participants that IETF we stick to the technical mer= its of the draft and do not engage in these sorts of process insinuations. = Nicola, I would like an apology, please. -Tim ________________________________ From: Nicola Tuveri Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2026 1:22 PM To: Salz, Rich Cc: tls@ietf.org Subject: [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Use of ML-DSA in TLS 1.3 Hi Rich, thanks for your clarification, indeed my phrasing was not ideal. I=92ll tak= e your comment as a chance to clarify my stance. Code point assignment and deployment support are distinct considerations. I= n practice, non-experimental production deployments generally rely on both = assigned code points and a published standard. Concerns about the proliferation of standards introducing support for addit= ional code points are not uncommon on this list. I note a similar concern h= ere in support of delaying this draft. At present, the process risks creating the impression of a =93first-to-stan= dard=94 outcome, where publication effectively determines the direction of = deployment before the trade-offs have been fully examined, possibly even st= alling the progress of other drafts. In particular, the argument that intro= ducing additional options increases complexity has been raised repeatedly o= n this list, but it does not seem sufficient on its own to guide decisions = in a security area WG. It would be preferable to more explicitly evaluate t= he security properties of hybrid and non-hybrid approaches and reach a posi= tion that can inform what should-and should not-be advanced to standard. Best regards, Nicola Tuveri On Wed, Apr 22, 2026 at 19.30 Salz, Rich > wrote: * I have read the draft, but I do not support its publication at the moment. * My rationale is that this draft adds complexity by adding extra code points= for pure mldsa. Code points are assigned when a stable reference is available, as you might= recall from the long threads on the pure ML-KEM draft. So I don=92t think = your stated rationale makes sense. --_000_DS0PR14MB64815A9AAF474078C9E8ADA4832D2DS0PR14MB6481namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I strongly object to the suggestion that not enough time has been spent dis= cussing the advantages and disadvantages of hybrid vs non-hybrid authentica= tion (a rather bold claim at this point, after eight years of such discussi= ons!) or any suggestion that this process is moving too fast. 

I would like to remind participants that IETF we stick to the technical mer= its of the draft and do not engage in these sorts of process insinuations. = Nicola, I would like an apology, please.

-Tim
From: Nicola Tuveri <nic= .tuv@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2026 1:22 PM
To: Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
Cc: tls@ietf.org <tls@ietf.org>
Subject: [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Use of ML-DSA in TLS = 1.3
 

Hi Rich,

thanks for your clarification, indeed my phrasing was not i= deal. I=92ll take your comment as a chance to clarify my stance.


Code point assignment and deployment support are distinct c= onsiderations. In practice, non-experimental production deployments general= ly rely on both assigned code points and a published standard.


Concerns about the proliferation of standards introducing s= upport for additional code points are not uncommon on this list. I note a s= imilar concern here in support of delaying this draft.


At present, the process risks creating the impression of a = =93first-to-standard=94 outcome, where publication effectively determines t= he direction of deployment before the trade-offs have been fully examined, = possibly even stalling the progress of other drafts. In particular, the argument that introducing additional opti= ons increases complexity has been raised repeatedly on this list, but it do= es not seem sufficient on its own to guide decisions in a security area WG.= It would be preferable to more explicitly evaluate the security properties of hybrid and non-hybrid appro= aches and reach a position that can inform what should-and should not-be ad= vanced to standard.


Best regards,

Nicola Tuveri



On Wed, Apr 22, 2026 at 19.30 Salz,= Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrot= e:
  • I have read the draft, but I do not support its publication at the moment.<= /div>

  • My rationale is that thi= s draft adds complexity by adding extra code points for pure mldsa.

Code points are assigned when a stable reference is available, as you might= recall from the long threads on the pure ML-KEM draft. So I don=92t think = your stated rationale makes sense.
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