Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS*
Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> Sat, 19 November 2016 06:49 UTC
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To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
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From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 07:49:29 +0100
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Subject: Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS*
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On 2016-11-19 07:35, Victor Vasiliev wrote: > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com <mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com>> wrote: > > I oppose to going to TLS 4, due to the following reasons: > > * it might give people false notion that SSL 2.0, 3.0 is superior to TLS 1.0-1.2 > * if name the new protocol TLS 1.3, 2.0, or 2, then there would be no confusion once SSL goes away. However, if we name the new version TLS 4, then people would (for upcoming tens of years) continue to ask where TLS 2 and TLS 3. Windows 9 never made it to the public. Hardly nobody complained. If the TLS protocol you are working on is "Brand New" or is just an "Incremental Upgrade" is more a matter of personal opinion than an absolute truth. It is definitely a "Major Overhaul" since every little bit of the protocol has been reviewed thoroughly. TLS 4 seems OK to me. Anders > > > I very much agree with those points. > > TLS 4 is a confusing name that, as far as I can tell, cannot actually make > things better. Right now we have: > > SSL 2 -> SSL 3 -> TLS 1.0 -> TLS 1.1 -> TLS 1.2 -> TLS 1.3 (1) > > Now, some people may get confused by this because of the "SSL is TLS" idea, but > once you learn that in reality "SSL is a thing that was before TLS", it does > make sense and seem fairly straightforward (a series of numbers under one name, > followed by another series of numbers under the new name). > > With TLS 4, we have: > > SSL 2 -> SSL 3 -> TLS 1.0 -> TLS 1.1 -> TLS 1.2 -> TLS 4 (2) > > This does has a nice property of indicating that TLS 4 is clearly the latest > version (as long as you know that SSL came before TLS), but omission of TLS 2 > and TLS 3 will leave people confused, and most likely lead them to conclude > that what happened is TLS was renamed to SSL and then back again, so that > > TLS 1.0 -> TLS 1.1 -> TLS 1.2 -> SSL 2 -> SSL 3 -> TLS 4. (3) > > But this is not even the worst of the problems. > > The real problem is that we can't actually rename TLS 1.3, because at the end > we will merely create a new name for it. It has already been TLS 1.3 for a few > years, it has been discussed in the tech community as TLS 1.3, researchers have > published papers about TLS 1.3, there's probably already the marketing material > with TLS 1.3 out there. The code that refers to it as TLS 1.3 will probably > end up being referring to it as 1.3 for approximately forever, even if all the > implementers had been enthusiastic about renaming it, because refactoring is > high-cost and low-priority, and may not be even possible if you've already > exposed it via the ABI. The old name will never die, and it will be a burden > to anyone in this community, making confusing versioning scheme even more > confusing. It will probably leak outside of it too, and instead of (2), we > will end up getting > > SSL 2 -> SSL 3 -> TLS 1.0 -> TLS 1.1 -> TLS 1.2 -> TLS 1.3 = TLS 4 (4) > > which seems strictly more confusing than (1) in any way. > > tl;dr: the only way to minimze confusion at this point is to not change > anything. > > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Joseph Birr-Pixton
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Yoav Nir
- [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Erik Nygren
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Nick Harper
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Michael Ströder
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Will Serumgard
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Henrick Hellström
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ira McDonald
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Christian Huitema
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dave Kern
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Vlad Krasnov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Deb Cooley
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Vlad Krasnov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eftychios Theodorakis
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Vlad Krasnov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Julien ÉLIE
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Adrian
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Kazuho Oku
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Woodhouse
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Melinda Shore
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Victor Vasiliev
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ira McDonald
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Judson Wilson
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Vlad Krasnov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Steven Valdez
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Filippo Valsorda
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* D. J. Bernstein
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Xiaoyin Liu
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Mark Nottingham
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* darin.pettis
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* =JeffH
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Short, Todd
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Sean Leonard
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Woodhouse
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Scott Schmit
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Daniel Migault
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Anders Rundgren
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Dan Brown
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Timothy Jackson
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Raja ashok
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Matt Caswell
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Thomas Pornin
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Maarten Bodewes
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Rob Stradling
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* darin.pettis
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Aaron Zauner
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Patrick McManus
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Scott Schmit
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Scott Schmit
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Karthik Bhargavan
- [TLS] closing thread -> Re: Confirming consensus:… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Mohan Sekar
- Re: [TLS] Confirming consensus: TLS1.3->TLS* Joseph Salowey