Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Tue, 11 November 2014 00:19 UTC
Return-Path: <nico@cryptonector.com>
X-Original-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F7D1AD23D for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:19:37 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.666
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vCGUvMRRG_x3 for <tls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:19:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084541AD0D1 for <tls@ietf.org>; Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:19:34 -0800 (PST)
Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB59527BC061; Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:19:33 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=vZX3i0OfJRG1r1 yesG2mCw5yaW8=; b=sn6fl8Q/Us2F92/lYswrACpurvGs7HL1glx622EBZDVTTY jgfrWQyR+voOL1OAC07uW1x/ezOroWsiGV25tZ6XzN4Uyqah9+cEpwTvnXJAhAkd DhCKMtOtH1kZi8c5b1UjYGB8O/3nvoiBbivZlzIqoFYVelU691pppEKky5IOA=
Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 69E6427BC05D; Mon, 10 Nov 2014 16:19:33 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2014 18:19:32 -0600
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20141111001930.GE3412@localhost>
References: <CACsn0cnkRZ5ZzX0bHfVFsvsrNoJxU2Txs0O2YW386fsg9GF1vQ@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBMQc5Mb_FK3davMxi0oBgzawqCMaYp1DqGYgg3nEHYHHw@mail.gmail.com> <CADi0yUOZ8LqsJbTTZmYL6XgrTjWvTMqvFMd7euzv+xQPU9vPJg@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBM+CcG8Tr_+XZ6nkw4xJP8DGFXguvRvLGhTUXYdhEOUqA@mail.gmail.com> <87r3xdfzi1.fsf@alice.fifthhorseman.net> <CABkgnnWqppL-1VJORYfrwuKn8n=NO-rZX6LDTiq+-qxddsp1mg@mail.gmail.com> <87r3xawv8a.fsf@alice.fifthhorseman.net> <CABkgnnXWAZ78ir-62cnsZM080GAFzScNSv52SKGAc6ZRYM+++w@mail.gmail.com> <CACsn0c=nh1yDUcYGYSMBhUs0OnJJJeOh5CRT3qyz8ZEVQsdokA@mail.gmail.com> <21EF390E-1F89-410B-8114-74C0A8D5502D@gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <21EF390E-1F89-410B-8114-74C0A8D5502D@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/kRBBWHTT-towHaGHY9fCK7Yr-fI
Cc: tls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3
X-BeenThere: tls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls>, <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2014 00:19:37 -0000
On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 02:08:06PM -1000, Yoav Nir wrote: > The issue is that the server sends a certificate + a buffer that is a > long-term DH public key signed with the private key associated with > the public key in that certificate. > > Anyone who has that certificate and buffer plus the long-term DH > private key can impersonate the server. It's delegation in the sense > that the server can sign a DH public key and let another node > impersonate it. Session tickets too are a form of delegation, with narrower scope (just one client). But surely clients won't be sharing these delegated DH pubkeys with each other? This sort of delegation is probably a fine thing, except that: > So the argument against it is that the new signed buffer is in effect > a credential, a certificate. Except that this kind of certificate does > not have the PKIX stuff. Specifically, there is no revocation for that > signature. A compromised signed DH public key can only be revoked by > revoking the certificate. As we are not currently prepared to work > on TLS delegation, we don't want to sneak delegation in through the > back door. it needs to have an explicit notAfter date, that needs be in the near future. The acceptable lifetime of a delegated server pubkey should be comparable to the acceptable lifetime of a session ticket, and both should be relatively short (hours, not days, and certainly not weeks). Nico --
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Rene Struik
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Andy Lutomirski
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Andy Lutomirski
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Dan Brown
- Re: [TLS] OPTLS: Signature-less TLS 1.3 Hugo Krawczyk