Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignment: draft-mavrogiannopoulos-chacha-tls
Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> Wed, 20 May 2015 11:10 UTC
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Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 14:10:21 +0300
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos <nmav@redhat.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Cc: IETF TLS Working Group <tls@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignment: draft-mavrogiannopoulos-chacha-tls
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At ipsecme, we had a few incompatible changes between WG adoption of our own chacha draft, and WGLC. So I would recommend against early registration altogether. Thanks, Yaron On 05/20/2015 10:12 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > Hi, > > While I am generally against ciphersuite proliferation I > think its a good idea to register some of these now. I > would note however that you only need the temporary > registrations for things with which people want to work > now - any future proofing can be done as the draft > progresses so the WG do not need to decide all of this > now. And of course, there is always the potential for > non-interoperable changes to happen during the WG > process which is another good reason to not register > more than the absolute minimum of codepoints now. > > So please restrict the early registration list to > those that are needed *right now*. Anything that can > wait months, should wait months. > > Thanks, > S. > > > On 20/05/15 07:58, Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos wrote: >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> I tend to agree. Can someone reply with a brief explanation of why >>> each of the following is needed? Hopefully better than what I was >>> able to devise: >> I don't think one would have to explain each and every usage >> of a ciphersuite. If applications don't need it they won't use it. >> >>> TLS_RSA_WITH_CHACHA20_POLY1305 >>> Because we're scared of ephemeral key exchange for some reason ? >> I believe the main argument is that this draft is supposed to provide >> ciphersuites to used by existing protocols and applications which already >> use RSA. Yes, I agree that some of them would need to be updated to >> provide >> PFS, but this draft doesn't update those apps/protocols. A protocol that >> I know that relies on the RSA ciphersuites is the anyconnect vpn protocol >> (even though its usage doesn't affect PFS). >> >>> TLS_DHE_PSK_WITH_CHACHA20_POLY1305 >>> Because ECDHE is nice, but we need a backup, even for little things ? >> That was my intention. To provide DHE as backup to ECDHE, since they >> are not susceptible to the same attacks. It is now >> especially relevant since we will have fixed groups for DHE. >> >>> TLS_RSA_PSK_WITH_CHACHA20_POLY1305 >>> Because little things like doing bignum exponentiation without any PFS >>> payoff, but RSA alone isn't "secure enough" ? >> I don't have much data for this ciphersuite. If someone has a strong >> argument >> on why it shouldn't be included I wouldn't object. >> >>> The thing that concerns me most is that we aren't saying that PFS is >>> required outside of PSK. I understand the carve-out we've made for >>> the little things, but I don't understand why we are defining >>> RSA-based suites without PFS. >> I agree. However, note that this draft is not the place to argue for >> that, >> but rather the protocols that rely on non-PFS ciphersuites. >> >>> Of comparable concern is the RSA_PSK stuff. I wasn't around for the >>> definition of these originally, but they make basically no sense to >>> me. >> The idea was to provide both certificate auth for the server and PSK >> auth for the client. The implementation was less than ideal. >> >>> Also, I'm not against DHE in general, and I think that it's worth >>> keeping around for a little longer. However. If we consider DHE_RSA >>> worth doing, then the only logic I can concoct would provide almost >>> equal justification for DHE_ECDSA. >> There is no DHE_ECDSA key exchange defined for TLS. Otherwise there would >> be no reason for these ciphersuites to be there. >> regards, >> Nikos >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TLS mailing list >> TLS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
- [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignment: … Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Benjamin Beurdouche
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Adam Langley
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] WG adoption + early code point assignme… Hubert Kario