[TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantum Hybrid ECDHE-MLKEM Key Agreement for TLSv1.3
Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org> Fri, 10 October 2025 06:23 UTC
Return-Path: <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org>
X-Original-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82450707C032 for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Thu, 9 Oct 2025 23:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.398
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dukhovni.org
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F8sCpVqpy_ci for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Thu, 9 Oct 2025 23:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from chardros.imrryr.org (chardros.imrryr.org [144.6.86.210]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F9D0707BFDC for <tls@ietf.org>; Thu, 9 Oct 2025 23:23:30 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dukhovni.org; i=@dukhovni.org; q=dns/txt; s=f8320d6e; t=1760077402; h=date : from : to : subject : message-id : reply-to : references : mime-version : content-type : in-reply-to : content-transfer-encoding : from; bh=D2s1R5Nr6rYHzBDSWYYB9oUosjsnH+SGN4pbljz9kdM=; b=qcms+qWHMRBICmbun/sdersSZVEAMpRThV3gpY8oX4bv9JSPOfZAxx0N+w0CbIkjZgLFf lj5vKeHThlS5OaNge5DnrFfZLueacgU8N+TT9fcqIQtIJu/8kQ5M5AVfdzLwEuJnCZShDhz 0NnAOmSiaTl1/uKsW2/VN7ENSKBym1Q=
Received: by chardros.imrryr.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 673FE901F9D; Fri, 10 Oct 2025 17:23:22 +1100 (AEDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 17:23:22 +1100
From: Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org>
To: tls@ietf.org
Message-ID: <aOimWoGkK3_dGOSF@chardros.imrryr.org>
References: <CAOgPGoA+c8kXDizwsvFG5tLz9+Kxk0HqiN1skKp5jMvvpxeu0Q@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBO+3u=1=ueNscq+O74Qv=7PC5NedsGsugp=GZjVqtODoQ@mail.gmail.com> <1040fcc9-46e3-197e-1fa7-353c978486fb@nohats.ca> <CABcZeBMZ=0ByGpDzHsfq2m3wO9NhpEoFX+2k0_8NhTiAYekqBw@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBMZ=0ByGpDzHsfq2m3wO9NhpEoFX+2k0_8NhTiAYekqBw@mail.gmail.com>
Mail-Followup-To: <tls@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID-Hash: 7FXGPI3W75AOSLXKXHKO25ORJCFYCYCP
X-Message-ID-Hash: 7FXGPI3W75AOSLXKXHKO25ORJCFYCYCP
X-MailFrom: ietf-dane@dukhovni.org
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Reply-To: tls@ietf.org
Subject: [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantum Hybrid ECDHE-MLKEM Key Agreement for TLSv1.3
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/m_a9a3FmfQep_9QqFS_kmPEEHlk>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tls-leave@ietf.org>
On Tue, Oct 07, 2025 at 09:39:52AM -0700, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> For context, there are currently four such supported groups for TLS:
> X25519, X448, P-256, and P-384. Is there a substantive reason why the
> hybrids of these same groups with MLKEM ought not to be RECOMMENDED=Y?
I was just drafting a message to suggest that the draf is missing an
obvious combination:
MLKEM1024 + X448
If MLKEM1024 is supported with SecP384r1 (P-384), it should also be
supported with X448. The supported combinations would then be more
"natural":
MLKEM768 + either P-256 or X25519
MLKEM1024 + either P-384 or X448
--
Viktor. 🇺🇦 Слава Україні!
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Working Group Last Call for Post-quantum Hy… Joseph Salowey
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… David Adrian
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… tirumal reddy
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Thom Wiggers
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… David Benjamin
- [TLS] Re: [External⚠️] Re: Working Group Last Cal… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Martin Thomson
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [External] Re: Working Group Last Call … D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: [External] Re: Working Group Last Call … Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: [External] Re: Working Group Last Call … John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Dennis Jackson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Joseph Birr-Pixton
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Robert Relyea
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Sophie Schmieg
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Christopher Patton
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Appeal Response to Rob Sayre - was Re: Re: … Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: Appeal Response to Rob Sayre - was Re: … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaakov Stein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Robert Relyea
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Sophie Schmieg
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Joseph Salowey