[TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation
Quynh Dang <quynh97@gmail.com> Wed, 15 January 2025 23:26 UTC
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From: Quynh Dang <quynh97@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2025 18:25:39 -0500
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To: Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com>
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Subject: [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation
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On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 2:45 PM Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com> wrote: > > - I started with some change suggestions for you to consider > > Understood; the suggestion that consensus should be determined at the > meetings has been opposed by others, > I have seen 2 or 3 as being "others" in your message. > I don’t need to repeat the arguments. > > Even as an employee of a large business, I cannot rely solely on the > (increasingly more expensive) meeting attendance to participate in the IETF > consensus process. > > > > Also, the general idea of voting to pick the best course of action for > complicated technical matters seems questionable. > I recommend you to re(read) my first email. The chairs start a discussion of a technical matter, later at a meeting, if the chairs think that the matter has been well discussed and understood enough, the chairs start for a consensus call (votes). It is basically the same with what is going on right now. > There is no minimum technical qualification requirement or process for the > IETF attendees. > Do you want to test someone's qualifications before they are allowed to vote or their voice can have any value ? The chairs can ask the participants to provide the reason(s) for their vote. Regards, Quynh. > > I agree that as things stand, there is some level of WG chair discretion > in determining consensus; I believe the chairs are doing a good job of > this, in general. > > And I say this even though I’ve been in the rough quite a few times😊 > > > > Cheers, > > > > Andrei > > > > *From:* Quynh Dang <quynh97@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2025 11:16 AM > *To:* Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com> > *Cc:* Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>; tls@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 2:08 PM Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com> > wrote: > > > - Did you mean the number of people attending a particular meeting ? > > My understanding is that consensus is not determined by meeting > participants; it’s always determined on the mailing list. Are you > suggesting that a certain minimum percentage of mailing list subscribers > have to be in favor? > > > > I have not been talking about how the current consensus process works. I > started with some change suggestions for you to consider. Please read my > first email(s) first. > > > > Regards, > > Quynh. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Andrei > > > > *From:* Quynh Dang <quynh97@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2025 11:01 AM > *To:* Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com> > *Cc:* Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>; tls@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation > > > > You don't often get email from quynh97@gmail.com. Learn why this is > important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 1:50 PM Andrei Popov <Andrei.Popov@microsoft.com> > wrote: > > In the absence of a roster of participants, how can a percentage of votes > be determined? > > We don’t have WG membership registrations, AFAIK. > > > > Did you mean the number of people attending a particular meeting ? > Requiring them to sign in using the online tools. For the people who > don't sign and they attend another meeting, they can send their IETF > registration for that day or for the whole week to the chairs and their > votes can be cast within a week or so after the IETF ends. > > > > That would be an easy task I think and I don't think we should talk about > it now. > > > > Regards, > > Quynh. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Andrei > > > > *From:* Quynh Dang <quynh97@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2025 10:44 AM > *To:* Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> > *Cc:* tls@ietf.org > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation > > > > You don't often get email from quynh97@gmail.com. Learn why this is > important <https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2025 at 1:26 PM Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> wrote: > > On Jan 15, 2025 at 11:37:58 AM, Quynh Dang <quynh97@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Defining a minimum percentage of votes to have the consensus would take > care of the problem and the chairs at the IETF would love that. > > > > No it wouldn’t > > > > Why do you think it wouldn't take care of the problem I described? > > > > Regards, > > Quynh. > > > > and no we (speaking as former co-chair of two WGs) wouldn’t. > > > > I’m not sure why we’re relitigating the works-pretty-OK process of > consensus calls from the chair and potential appeals. > > > > -T > >
- [TLS] Changing WG Mail List Reputation Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Arnaud Taddei
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation David Benjamin
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Tim Hollebeek
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Bob Beck
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Joseph Salowey
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Joseph Salowey
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Sean Turner
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Dang, Quynh H. (Fed)
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Bob Beck
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation John Levine
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Dennis Jackson
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Ted Lemon
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Tim Hollebeek
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Tim Bray
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Ted Lemon
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Roman Danyliw
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Quynh Dang
- [TLS] Re: Changing WG Mail List Reputation Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Changing WG Mail List Re… Quynh Dang