Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Keying MaterialExporters for Transport Layer Security (TLS)) to Proposed Standard
Erick O <ericko0@yahoo.com> Fri, 18 September 2009 14:34 UTC
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Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:34:26 -0700
From: Erick O <ericko0@yahoo.com>
To: Erick O <ericko0@yahoo.com>, Dean Anderson <dean@av8.com>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Cc: ietf-honest@lists.iadl.org, rms@gnu.org, tls@ietf.org, Nicolas Williams <Nicolas.Williams@sun.com>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Keying MaterialExporters for Transport Layer Security (TLS)) to Proposed Standard
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________________________________ From: Erick O <ericko0@yahoo.com> To: Dean Anderson <dean@av8.com>; Wes Beebee (wbeebee) <wbeebee@cisco.com> Cc: tls@ietf.org; ietf-honest@lists.iadl.org; ietf@ietf.org; Nicolas Williams <Nicolas.Williams@sun.com>; rms@gnu.org Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:36:34 PM Subject: Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Keying MaterialExporters for Transport Layer Security (TLS)) to Proposed Standard ________________________________ From: Dean Anderson <dean@av8.com> To: Wes Beebee (wbeebee) <wbeebee@cisco.com> Cc: ietf-honest@lists.iadl.org; ietf@ietf.org; rms@gnu.org; Nicolas Williams <Nicolas.Williams@sun.com>; tls@ietf.org Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:57:57 AM Subject: Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Keying MaterialExporters for Transport Layer Security (TLS)) to Proposed Standard On Mon, 27 Jul 2009, Wes Beebee (wbeebee) wrote: > Many patents are filed for defensive reasons. Ie. If I don't patent it, > then someone else will, and then I won't be able to use the idea I came > up with. The other defensive reason is so that if company A tries to > sue company B for infringing patents, then company B can threaten to sue > company A back - and the end result of the mutual assured destruction is > that no one ends up suing anyone else. What you say is true, and is basically why the LPF accepts mutually defensive patents. http://www.progfree.org/Patents/mutual-def.html Of course, they key is the nonagression policy and the universal free license. But the above just recognizes the realities imposed by the laws of an unfair patent system. Patents (mutally defensive) are better than no patents whatsoever. While publication and prior are helpful, the law gives (unfairly we argue) benefits to patent holders including mutually defensive patent holders. So, there is still a reason to change the law on patents. These mutually defensive patents are still expensive, and must still be defended to some extent: e.g. against an agressive patent holder of an overlapping patent who seeks to enjoin against the mut-def patent application. I think there are two reasons for the IETF to consider patented technology: First, I think the IETF is made up of a majority of people who are anti-patent in their views. But industry players who are agressively pro-patent (as we have seen) also participate, and it seems (strangely) control the leadership. Despite the actions of the IESG silencing critics, the IETF does not actually have a right to deny participation to those players who merely disagree with the majority. To do so is a violation of the Hobbs Act on democratic participation, and a violation of anti-trust laws. Morally, it would just be wrong to deny participation to the opposition. We have to respect the rights of the opposition to participate, even when they don't respect our right to participate. Second, Truly novel, superior patents are very, very rare. The example I hold up is the (hypothetical) patenting of the fast fourier transform (FFT). The FFT is so superior and so novel in signal processing, that if it were patented people doing signal processing would have no choice but to standardize it and pay whatever fees were demanded. If something like that happened, it would be a very, very sad day. But that possibility it is really just another reason to change the law on patents. But fortunately, I haven't seen that level of novelty and superiority in any patented technology so far proposed to the IETF. Most patent technology I have seen so far proposed to the IETF is either not very novel and/or not very superior and, most significant to a standarization decision, is easily replaced by non-patented technology. In the case the IETF approves a patented standard, I would hope that the IETF only does so for a mutually defensive patent, or only in the case were something is so novel and so superior as to be like the FFT to signals and systems analysis. Anything less seems like a very poor choice. So the IETF /can/ make a decision to approve a patented technology. But of course, mere procedural ability to approve a patented technology is no reason to approve a non-free patented technology that is easily replaced by non-patented technology. We should make intelligent and informed decisions. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list TLS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls
- [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Keying… The IESG
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dan Harkins
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Douglas Stebila
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Matthew Campagna
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Matthew Campagna
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Todd Glassey
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Todd Glassey
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Noel Chiappa
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… David Morris
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Lawrence Rosen
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor(Key… Jeffrey A. Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Stephen Kent
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Pasi.Eronen
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Dean Anderson
- [TLS] Archiving IETF IPR documents was Re: Last C… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Simon Josefsson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-extractor (Ke… Erick O
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Dean Anderson
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman
- Re: [TLS] [Ietf-honest] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls… Richard Stallman