Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping discussion...
Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Mon, 10 July 2017 22:34 UTC
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To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Cc: "Polk, Tim (Fed)" <william.polk@nist.gov>, IETF TLS <tls@ietf.org>
References: <E9640B43-B3AD-48D7-910D-F284030B5466@nist.gov> <CY4PR14MB13688370E0544C9B84BB52A3D7A90@CY4PR14MB1368.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <9693fc25-6444-e066-94aa-47094700f188@cs.tcd.ie> <CY4PR14MB1368BA01881DD9495FE86DF0D7A90@CY4PR14MB1368.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <d806a69c-af30-c963-a361-91075332a61b@cs.tcd.ie> <F87D7646-DC53-4EF8-A2D8-D0939A0FB351@vigilsec.com> <b9001044-83d7-805c-2a49-c2780401bbf8@cs.tcd.ie> <7EB4B7BD-EA31-4D97-98F5-7BF5E47A9A20@vigilsec.com> <e7e39c1c-4ab9-d4cf-a673-6df9c3bc1217@cs.tcd.ie> <78DF6C63-8DF1-473A-9150-63EEB9E18B20@vigilsec.com>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 23:34:07 +0100
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Subject: Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping discussion...
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On 10/07/17 23:32, Russ Housley wrote: > Stephen: > >>>>> >>>>>> And to avoid a repeat of Russ' failed justification, many >>>>>> protocols use and depend on TLS where the entity >>>>>> controlling the TLS server private key materials is not the >>>>>> higher layer sender or receiver, so all four points in the >>>>>> definition in 2804 are fully met by your wiretapping >>>>>> scheme. >>>>> >>>>> It is clear that you do not agree with the reasoning that I >>>>> posted on Friday. Some people do, and clearly, others do >>>>> not. >>>>> >>>>> So, I failed to convince you. However, you have also failed >>>>> to convince me that the proposal is wiretapping under the >>>>> definition in RFC 2804, Section 3. >>>> >>>> Consider SMTP/TLS. Where one MTA on the path supports this. Say >>>> it's one operated by an anti-spam company for example. That is >>>> clearly not the sender nor recipient. >>>> >>>> That meets all 4 points in 2804, right? >>> >>> You are pointing to email. Some MTAs will use SMTP over TLS, but >>> many others do not. It would be great if they all do, especially >>> for the authentication. In your response you are talking about >>> an email system that has been using plaintext for ages, and you >>> are trying to apply hop-by-hop a mechanism to the delivery. >>> Then, you are saying that the sender and receiver have >>> confidentiality expectations that are being violated. I do not >>> buy it. >> >> See [1]. >> >> Those show nearly 90% of mails being encrypted with TLS now. >> >> In many mail deployments there will be an added hop e.g. for >> anti-spam (we do that here in tcd) to an outside party. >> >> While not 100% of mail is encrypted with TLS on all hops, much is. >> (And the UTA WG are developing MTA-STS to try improve that.) >> >> If one of those external parties implements your scheme then mail >> senders and receivers will not know and that real TLS application >> meets the 2804 definition for lots and lots and lots of emails. >> >> Hence, 2804 applies here and the standards-track label ought be >> removed. >> >> S. >> >> [1] https://www.google.com/transparencyreport/saferemail/ > > I'm glad that TLS is being used to protect email delivery. > > I do not see how this changes the expectation discussed in RFC 2804, > Section 3, Item number 3. > Talk to our (tcd.ie) or gmail's mail admin folks. Their expectations count too. (Or are we against enterprise requirements or something? ;-) S. > Russ > > >
- [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping discus… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Dan Brown
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Polk, Tim (Fed)
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Michael StJohns
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Christian Huitema
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Christian Huitema
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Timothy Jackson
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell