Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping discussion...
Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Mon, 10 July 2017 19:32 UTC
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To: "Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL" <uri@ll.mit.edu>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping discussion...
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On 10/07/17 20:07, Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL wrote: > My $0.02: absolutely not on the Standards Track (for reasons already > expressed by others), might be discussable if Informational. I haven't checked, but as far as I recall, other wiretapping RFCs inconsistent with 2804 have all been in the ISE stream (or predate it) and have all documented already deployed wiretapping schemes. I think that is consistent with 2804 and using a WG list and WG participant cycles/attention to debate/develop wiretapping methods does go against 2804 and ought not be done. S. > > -- Regards, Uri Blumenthal > > On 7/10/17, 15:03, "TLS on behalf of Nico Williams" > <tls-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of nico@cryptonector.com> wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 08:01:32PM +0300, Yoav Nir wrote: >>> On 10 Jul 2017, at 17:16, Stephen Farrell >>> <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: >>>> 2. this proposal offers significantly better security >>>> properties than current practice (central distribution of >>>> static RSA keys) >>> >>> I fail to see any relevant difference in security properties >>> between those two, never mind a significant improvement. >> >> I can see one way in which it is worse. >> >> With static RSA keys, you can configure the server to use only PFS >> ciphesuites (ECDHE-RSA or DHE-RSA). If you want to enable the >> non-FS, you need to switch to RSA ciphersuites, and that would be >> obvious to any client. In fact, I think today a server would stick >> out if it only supported RSA ciphersuites. >> >> There is no way to know that a server is doing what it says in the >> draft. It’s completely opaque to the client. >> >> However, in both cases the server does get FS. As long as the >> server has not enabled RSA ciphersuites or exportable private key >> shares, any recorded TLS stream is safe even if the attacker later >> gets the private key. > > Well, a client could observe reuse of server ECDHE public keys... > > And servers can always share session keys with an auditing system. > There's no way a client could detect this. > > I don't think we need to have the client KNOW what the server is > doing because... how the heck can the server prove it's not > publishing the client's secrets?? The server simply cannot prove > that it is adhering to any privacy policy. > > Brief reuse of server ECDHE public keys is an optimization. I > _think_ it's a safe optimization, and it's safer the shorter the > reuse period is -- and correspondingly less safe the longer the reuse > period. > > But I would prefer that anyone wanting auditability just build that > into their implementations as a proper audit capability. Yes, it's > more complex to later decrypt sessions, but it also doesn't mess with > the protocol in any way. > > That said, I wouldn't object to the proposal if it meant to be > Informational. I don't see how a document that describes a possible > a configuration (not protocol!) that is not relevant to the Internet > should be a Standards-Track RFC, or BCP for that matter. > Informational will do. > > Nico -- > > _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls > > > > > _______________________________________________ TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls >
- [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping discus… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yaron Sheffer
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Paul Turner
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Dan Brown
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Polk, Tim (Fed)
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Michael StJohns
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Christian Huitema
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Christian Huitema
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Timothy Jackson
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] chairs - please shutdown wiretapping di… Stephen Farrell