Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE group
Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> Wed, 05 November 2014 02:19 UTC
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Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:19:03 -0800
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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE group
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On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Viktor Dukhovni <ietf-dane@dukhovni.org> wrote: > On Tue, Nov 04, 2014 at 12:49:21PM -0500, Sean Turner wrote: > >> The draft currently includes a minimum group size of 2432 but the WG also >> discussed 2048. Groups smaller than 2048 were discounted for a standards >> track document as too weak for use but might be documented in a separate >> "historic" draft. To help us reach consensus on this point, please reply >> to this email indicating whether you favor a "2048" or "2432" minimum >> group size. Note we're also looking to specify the smallest number of >> options for groups as is acceptable - i.e., we're not looking at specifying >> both 2048 and 2432. >> >> Background: Regardless of whether you agree with what follows or not, the >> following has been put forward as the rationale. We don't need comments >> on the rationale, we're just providing it for background. > > Has any consideration been given to the question of how much of a > barrier to the use of Forward-Secrecy larger key sizes might pose? > > If using DHE imposes a sufficient performance cost, sites might > choose to disable (P)FS, and stick with RSA key exchange. They could also adopt ECC if performance is a concern. > > I take it the new DHE $\mathbb{Z}^*_p$ subgroups will be cyclic > with prime order $q$, where $q$ is a much shorter prime (twice the > desired security level bits as with the various DSA groups). If > so, how much of a performance advantage does this provide relative > to using generic $F_p$ groups for which the order of the generator > is not known (as with DHE in TLS today)? They are not of that form, but rather q=(p-1)/2. However, short exponents can still be used to accelerate DHE: this is independent of the group's order. This cannot be done with signature keys. > > Basically, what's the expected ratio of DH-per-second between the > two proposed field sizes, and between the 2048-bit group and $F_p$ > with $q = (p-1)/2$ and $p$ a 2048-bit Sophie-Germain prime. Is > the "new" 2432 as fast or faster than the "old" 2048? Slower, by a quadratic factor assuming standard algorithms for bignum arithmetic. No acceleration of either is possible, and for good reason: SNFS uses the same characteristics as we would use to optimize arithmetic. > > Choices of parameters are a trade-off. With unlimited CPU/network > we could go with 16k-bit primes. It is difficult to make such a > trade-off without some knowledge of the relative costs/benefits. ECC is the best choice by a wide margin here. > > What is our lowest estimated cost to the adversary of breaking > 2048-bit DH with purpose-built hardware? Significantly worse than 2048-bit RSA, due to being able to reuse the relations and build a large factor base that will accelerate the finding of additional discrete logs. > > What is the cost to the defender of using 2432 vs. 2048? > > -- > Viktor. > > _______________________________________________ > TLS mailing list > TLS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tls -- "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
- [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE group Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Blumenthal, Uri - 0558 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Stephen Checkoway
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Nikos Mavrogiannopoulos
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Andrey Jivsov
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Michael Sweet
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Michael Sweet
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Manuel Pégourié-Gonnard
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Hubert Kario
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] STRAW POLL: Size of the Minimum FF DHE … Rene Struik
- [TLS] closing - Re: STRAW POLL: Size of the Minim… Sean Turner