[TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantum Key Agreement for TLS 1.3

Andrey Jivsov <crypto@brainhub.org> Tue, 15 April 2025 20:50 UTC

Return-Path: <brainhubr@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Delivered-To: tls@mail2.ietf.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B5E1C8B23D for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2025 13:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.893
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.893 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bp-vZXiotefD for <tls@mail2.ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2025 13:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ua1-f44.google.com (mail-ua1-f44.google.com [209.85.222.44]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04BF41C8B236 for <tls@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2025 13:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ua1-f44.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-86fea8329cdso5051170241.1 for <tls@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2025 13:50:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1744750204; x=1745355004; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=s3IkgTXq1sGfYN72QalOjXMJnSIAfkm0WDSXcRjS80A=; b=gRelclg6mI+c5q7Od+kuNtqhwHHQQb2ujAUcJ5O8JSvD4NuDevIaLIetfnac2BT/ib H+8b4k8aMBpDltHF6JqNlsqD3uNShQhpJ339cx7g76ijxVTpd6QpoXQGQaUXCFNBRxrG yp2SigWh7iluCuQKCRiG+XcwGOoUHKKAc5Z0c6wD2lLKP8yD11cCLji/52GiXBpjH8+k q/qRgijmXp090dow5nCAOYiFUFSNaPrMUOycdPaPc1MXYSawSy8aD9UZwmgC5gS0C8xD iEG/c2MWIhuQMmYdqmvIiH8djigKHB7bAdM51oEVQ0YWl36jeyH/7bxMvI6oQ9W+qJ6a 86kQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxhyS3SbPKA5+a1799p50b550i87Py9xsgrlATH5nbgpZrhLV7i fbbbtf2y6L5V+U6zLbAEer1PX3Xkyk39sKzaY/TL8kEHSGLtJ4ytu90HWQ==
X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncuk0ztPHdBppw/8OJuT1FaNAqjTBxs2GaaWWaN3dEvuCtovr+ASXEjj//VCd0y cVzEhhRMNd1ljflp5BYCln18jizlA+tL7Ofmnt8uSFXccaMQlOz6k2uqaLEDUbqybrPFTFxtDrj Dxq8zkYorHTlOAtJQWoAqBDwLqLyt2i+Fysh7lLUW9BNw7Pc9KBfSKXtoutVzDLQZZssYmnqSQa 3sDwBS7IFeiG/3ZRxlZPTDwK6Q/TWFgbiL9akhmow9u2udCMSDcB5lqpHTqdGU/zahPO0nMZl1S 84LsCHEwNoTmCD3jvX/8Q6hOTTm7a814L4cbutjp/L3jDfLD6GIeF+zimfsasUU5a6RhS5km97d pAOxe9Q==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHRHyDWvz/fM86PY+ODh+upo4oUn4V6tPhcTFGKJ6aQBEXQ92KtMI13NlvW16pl86FLFnJPzw==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:55d1:b0:4bf:fb80:9429 with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-4cb5282ad13mr598846137.4.1744750204325; Tue, 15 Apr 2025 13:50:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-vk1-f173.google.com (mail-vk1-f173.google.com. [209.85.221.173]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ada2fe7eead31-4c9c97a2b38sm2763414137.15.2025.04.15.13.50.04 for <tls@ietf.org> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Apr 2025 13:50:04 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-vk1-f173.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-523ffbe0dbcso5725245e0c.0 for <tls@ietf.org>; Tue, 15 Apr 2025 13:50:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:1ac3:b0:526:2210:5b68 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-5290914e8dfmr593067e0c.4.1744750203920; Tue, 15 Apr 2025 13:50:03 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <582917A1-F936-4A15-AE9D-342076605BE7@sn3rd.com> <LO0P123MB67028DA31B281D3657043DF9A8B32@LO0P123MB6702.GBRP123.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <IA1PR17MB642131A86EA881582DE815E6CDB22@IA1PR17MB6421.namprd17.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <IA1PR17MB642131A86EA881582DE815E6CDB22@IA1PR17MB6421.namprd17.prod.outlook.com>
From: Andrey Jivsov <crypto@brainhub.org>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2025 13:49:52 -0700
X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: <CAAWw3RiUkbjyWadhfhPSEeimgxHQrK6oEMwo7saZqVgKJ-M0YA@mail.gmail.com>
X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUE5QJVl_u6qV1PDTERWzB7IKjjrMzXUFkSyubwmm493FJsVdL-pHFB1_k4
Message-ID: <CAAWw3RiUkbjyWadhfhPSEeimgxHQrK6oEMwo7saZqVgKJ-M0YA@mail.gmail.com>
To: TLS List <tls@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002083c10632d75007"
Message-ID-Hash: KAEKT4K7O5AR442OS35IR2XES2THPM6W
X-Message-ID-Hash: KAEKT4K7O5AR442OS35IR2XES2THPM6W
X-MailFrom: brainhubr@gmail.com
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6
Precedence: list
Subject: [TLS] Re: WG Adoption Call for ML-KEM Post-Quantum Key Agreement for TLS 1.3
List-Id: "This is the mailing list for the Transport Layer Security working group of the IETF." <tls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tls/uOmcMEqlyekrvcOgdsf7GtIlf3w>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tls>
List-Help: <mailto:tls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:tls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:tls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:tls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:tls-leave@ietf.org>

I am opposed to the adoption of ML-KEM at this time.

The main stated benefit of using a standalone ML-KEM is complexity
reduction, but with the current progress in the deployment of the ML-KEM +
ECC hybrid method, a standalone ML-KEM method actually increases overall
complexity in software stacks.

( Standalone ML-KEM should be published in some way, but not as a WG item. )


On Tue, Apr 15, 2025 at 7:33 AM Salz, Rich <rsalz=
40akamai.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> I believe I have already set that I am opposed to adopting pure PQ
> algorithms at this time.
> _______________________________________________
> TLS mailing list -- tls@ietf.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to tls-leave@ietf.org
>