Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01
Ilari Liusvaara <ilariliusvaara@welho.com> Sun, 16 July 2017 05:48 UTC
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Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 08:48:10 +0300
From: Ilari Liusvaara <ilariliusvaara@welho.com>
To: tls@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01
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On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 01:39:17AM +0100, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 15/07/17 23:55, Colm MacCárthaigh wrote: > > So far responses on the mailing list have been saying "Don't use > > pcap, instead run proxies". > Sorry, but that is incorrect. Some list participants > have said "we need pcap" and others have said that > "no, we do not need to use packet capture." And others, > myself included, consider that there is dearth of > evidence. > > The only reason to point that out is that it's one > amongst a pile of statements from the proponents of > drafgreen, that make assumptions that are pretty > clearly counter-factual. The architetures I have seen proposed, and some quick characteristics of each (each has its good sides, bad sides and security impacts, minor or major): No visibility at all: - Rely on IoC for malware (can be highly effective in low-background networks, high-background networks are a lost cause anyway). - Debug network by TCP correlation (can be highly effective if issue is within networking). - Application looging for debugging endpoint problems. - No visibility infrastructure to exploit. Packet captures with OoB key logging: - Can have visibility at both sides. - Can be high data amounts, but pcaps are much larger. Trigger jointly to reduce storage. - Can asymmetrically encrypt the key data (and possibly also transport- encrypt for additional layer of security). - Can give additional very-low-background channel w.r.t. malware. Packet captures with in-band key logging: - Can have visibility at both sides. - Needs opt-in from both sides for server-side logging (client-only for client-side logging). - Asymmetrically encrypts the key data. - Can't easily use transport-encryption for additional protection. - Automatically triggers jointly with packet captures. Proxies: - Can archive full visibility. - Potentially heavy processing for lots of connections. - Central point of attack in well-visible place. - Required anyway in certain kinds of networks. DH secret sharing (draft-green type): - Visibilty on server side only. - Needs proxies for external connections to avoid static or shared DHs from leaking. - Pull leaves visible central point of attack visible. - Push has self-vulernabilities. And then there is major difference between _architecture_ (specify the parts, requirements on them and analyze the results, without specifying anything concretely implementable), _framework_ (specify places to plug parts, but do not specify enough to make it interoperable) and _protocol_ (specify something that is implementable and interoperable). The difference between last two is especially large. If draft-green had been about architecture and did the analysis well (and had appropriate status for such draft, informational), it would be much much less controversial than the current one, which is a _protocol_ and labeled standards-track at that. My opinion is that if the WG wants to work on "TLS 1.3 visibility", it should be about various architectures, part requirements thereof and analysis of results thereof. Good analysis of impacts is a goal (something desriable to archive), interoperability is an anti-goal (something _undesirable_ to archive). The WG sure as heck should not work on interoprerable attack protocol (like one proposed in draft-green). Of course, such "visibility architectures" document would be quite a bit of work, especially considering that it would actually requires analysis, which is much harder than just specifying something interoperable. However, I don't care too much if "visibility" architecture work is done here or not. I do very much care that attack protocol work is _NOT_ done here, nor anywhere else within IETF (can't do much about various industry SDOs filled with industry hacks, I am sure there is plenty of those to go around). -Ilari
- [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Matthew Green
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Christian Huitema
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Timothy Jackson
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Jeremy Harris
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Russ Housley
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Richard Barnes
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Jacob Hoffman-Andrews
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Shumon Huque
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Eric Mill
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Checkoway
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Joseph Lorenzo Hall
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Melinda Shore
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Kathleen Moriarty
- [TLS] Fwd: draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Jeffrey Walton
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Nick Sullivan
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Kyle Rose
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13… Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Melinda Shore
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Wartan Hachaturow
- Re: [TLS] Fwd: draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13… Roland Zink
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Mark Nottingham
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Melinda Shore
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Tom Ritter
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Colm MacCárthaigh
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Dobbins, Roland
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Simon Friedberger
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Carl Mehner
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Roland Dobbins
- Re: [TLS] draft-green-tls-static-dh-in-tls13-01 Simon Friedberger