Re: [Drip] ADSB

[Robert Moskowitz <[e-mail]>]

On 8/4/20 11:27 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification.
>
> Le 04/08/2020 à 17:17, Stuart W. Card a écrit :
>> I just want to respond to one line that I think comes from confusion:
>>
>>> But if we have reluctance about the use of ADS-B, and thus of IP,
>>> and we recommend Bluetooth-without-IP to identify drones
>>
>> We aren't recommending Bluetooth-without-IP, we are _supporting_ it,
>
> But, the security manifest that I have seen on slides during the 
> presentation of the DRIP WG meeting - is something below IP, right?
>

Oh, and for Network Remote ID and C2 see my draft:

draft-moskowitz-drip-secure-nrid-c2

> Alex
>
>  as
>> it is specified in ASTM F3411, which most of the regulators are dubbing
>> as an approved technical means of regulatory compliance.
>>
>> AFAIK, no one runs IP over ADS-B, which was designed as a narrowband
>> application specific communications stovepipe, not a data link
>> supporting higher layer network protocols, so not great for IP.
>>
>> More importantly, we have no "reluctance about the use of... IP", which
>> is an entirely separate issue from ADS-B.
>>
>> On 8/4/2020 9:52 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
>>> architectural layers discussion...
>>>
>>> Le 30/07/2020 à 11:49, shuaiizhao(Shuai Zhao) a écrit :
>>>> Just to echo Stu on the ADSB, AFAIK, ADSB will  not be feasible for
>>>> most of the drones mostly due to SwaP, commercial drones might be
>>>> exception.
>>>
>>> It might be that ADS-B might be forbidden in drones on Earth, but how
>>> about the drones on Mars? ('NASA Mars helicopters', or ESA too).  On
>>> Mars there would be much less such drones, so less risk of 
>>> interference.
>>>
>>> With such a system (ADS-B under IP) one could re-use DTN (Delay 
>>> Tolerant
>>> Networking) between planets, and so identify drones even on Mars.
>>>
>>> But if we have reluctance about the use of ADS-B, and thus of IP, 
>>> and we
>>> recommend Bluetooth-without-IP to identify drones, then we might become
>>> too dependent on it?
>>>
>>> (do not get me wrong, I do like Bluetooth, but I like many other things
>>> together with Bluetooth).
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shuai Zhao
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Tm-rid <[e-mail]> on behalf of "Stuart W.
>>>> Card" <[e-mail]> *Date: *Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at
>>>> 19:46 *To: *"[e-mail]" <[e-mail]> *Subject: *[Drip]
>>>> ADSB (was: Review of draft-drip-arch-02 w.r.t. RFC6973, RFC8280 and
>>>> other)(Internet mail)
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the slow reply.
>>>>
>>>> ADS-B is gradually being mandated for essentially all manned
>>>> aircraft.
>>>>
>>>> ADSB-In and ADSB-Out are mandated for airliners: -In gives their
>>>> pilots
>>>>
>>>> some Situational Awareness (SA) of other aircraft; -Out gives other
>>>>
>>>> pilots SA of the airliners.
>>>>
>>>> "ADSB-Out" is mandated even for small general aviation aircraft: it
>>>> does
>>>>
>>>> not directly benefit the pilots of those aircraft; but by providing
>>>> SA
>>>>
>>>> to others, it indirectly benefits all.
>>>>
>>>> ADSB is _not_ going to be deployed on large numbers of small UAS as
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> would overwhelm the limited bandwidth available at those lower radio
>>>>
>>>> frequencies (which propagate long ranges). In fact, it is expected to
>>>> be
>>>>
>>>> explicitly prohibited in the US per the FAA NPRM; I suspect most of
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> rest of the world will do likewise.
>>>>
>>>> ADSB is also altogether insecure.
>>>>
>>>> On 7/9/2020 3:02 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> They call it "ADS-B Receivers" (Automatic Dependent Surveillance -
>>>>
>>>> Broadcast).
>>>>
>>>> I wouuld like to ask if there is a packet dump available showing
>>>> such
>>>>
>>>> presence data form planes?  Maybe wireshark already supports it,
>>>> maybe
>>>>
>>>> it even dissects it...
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Stuart W. Card, PhD, Principal Engineer
>>>>
>>>> AX Enterprize, LLC  www.axenterprize.com
>>>>
>>>> 4947 Commercial Drive, Yorkville NY 13495
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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