IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count?

"Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Tue, 13 April 2021 00:06 UTC

Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4F53A17D4 for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:06:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sq1OB00pV1ly for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:06:37 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1400110.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.140.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CB623A17CD for <tools-discuss@ietf.org>; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=FDNlSPckWH20cgl50YjF9phNXL/KMSejo3DbJqXvkvSnZPcwNBtO0tH2cbkZCCbLGRrAoQAGVWq82klx/YJ7npjHokidqrO7MPB7cwVM6m62i63L9OS5qSNy6U15E8G1HbAS1mM9UdqtpAqxNBVOzXN1bbFJpWmPm6ddL13VLPQ70VNR0YS9wPYORcfqehCSDk33CmCxj48xd+22Nk5mkXxX+maX+aXeMu3+VYbnTPtFbTnx8+xUb1iZfPJkPtX3wESo7GXptOueq6wHCojFBu7FWpByGGO03s0oQW0GxQkq2x2yu87xFpxSbULBmJ+mNbP8RFnpWRZYkRmVaIt8Vw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=jXPjZFkBeKaFE9hVOy/Ef5ASw3ZycMlORj79HacN+qc=; b=B8GIbwW/VHqb8vA/K3vbpI0CQ1/YFSfWuiNup/Q503sGvzHYRrhoDCNvzuWkBt1hmIfLFdC1psMQgerLPDyQNuFhhWhvF9NpNMWeCs6Ws1mw2rs4mFB60sTel+oUoTXkxwKrYC7Ak8vaYvL9Z774W+d4lnuyCxHu7NVctSsppIY0QkAuvX7gKS2i71MYS/gWTeibtDZIFJAMrkIwGgiPq5PokHSsZPtFlUP2xPv6t8/vk2jYc/mdNjveQ41god7D+cgUsjEQsiEAdKjyZau1iPuWWRW5cbQIJYMW7B6RFDjq+K8ImvyqqNwX1TpdlNdIcJegji5CYtnKK9EARNlixA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp; dkim=pass header.d=it.aoyama.ac.jp; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-itaoyama-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=jXPjZFkBeKaFE9hVOy/Ef5ASw3ZycMlORj79HacN+qc=; b=fSPREdavIjRZ5HM5zaZ/rs7FvsRm/D/IxDjS48s3Il5VYevoiCMOOsraPduO4lutDutW70cJSrq+1tInxyxd/LUARu2UP+53JR6gG9xHOLMRV6LQqoD6j7M+3ATE43a5Zuz7MZIMmEWDCl3CKAF+Z7ZQyMlknZOJSDOQPXWeaE0=
Authentication-Results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=it.aoyama.ac.jp;
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7) by TYXPR01MB1757.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:403:b::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4020.17; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 00:06:31 +0000
Received: from TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::5996:7da1:39fe:eca2]) by TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::5996:7da1:39fe:eca2%4]) with mapi id 15.20.4020.022; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 00:06:31 +0000
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com>
Cc: rfc-interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, tools-discuss <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <F35C8691-ADA2-4DEC-B24A-0DFB5B76567F@tzi.org> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <CACB24MtXPct5iOmYSgG5yQVt=-y5=L1nXmkqb4=TsPNfgsQihQ@mail.gmail.com> <4915F484-A2C4-44B0-BAF8-B3CF09D9450F@tzi.org>
From: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
Message-ID: <7af7447d-2304-6ab6-606f-5689586aa145@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:06:28 +0900
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.1
In-Reply-To: <4915F484-A2C4-44B0-BAF8-B3CF09D9450F@tzi.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Originating-IP: [223.217.46.174]
X-ClientProxiedBy: TY2PR06CA0048.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2e::36) To TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:8053::7)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
Received: from [192.168.1.7] (223.217.46.174) by TY2PR06CA0048.apcprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:404:2e::36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4020.16 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 00:06:31 +0000
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 523d565d-79e7-4dd2-b3d5-08d8fe0ffe03
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: TYXPR01MB1757:
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <TYXPR01MB1757F2766B2DD880A1A370E3CA4F9@TYXPR01MB1757.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com>
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:10000;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(136003)(39840400004)(376002)(346002)(396003)(366004)(26005)(66556008)(38350700002)(66476007)(478600001)(66946007)(31696002)(110136005)(316002)(5660300002)(8676002)(786003)(86362001)(956004)(16526019)(83380400001)(186003)(2906002)(2616005)(4326008)(8936002)(966005)(6666004)(6486002)(52116002)(31686004)(54906003)(36916002)(53546011)(38100700002)(16576012)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: 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
X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 523d565d-79e7-4dd2-b3d5-08d8fe0ffe03
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: TYAPR01MB5689.jpnprd01.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Apr 2021 00:06:31.3172 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: e02030e7-4d45-463e-a968-0290e738c18e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: noHtnDmbAe2a2s6ceY1ss3uKSpvCgLEg803Ez6ST5aA7X813An8XVtbWgUYiPH8xK8+MgYR/GLVd0u1zZUvBJw==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYXPR01MB1757
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/BqO9AsX6qr-it8ZhIGODp9vYml8>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count?
X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion <tools-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tools-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:tools-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 00:06:42 -0000

I'm not sure why apparently nobody got this, but RFCs still have page 
counts. Here is a very recent example, (see
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/GGb94E77Boes9UWUjunO3CIhH70)

 >>>>>>>>
         RFC 8997

         Title:      Deprecation of TLS 1.1 for
                     Email Submission and Access
         Author:     L. Velvindron,
                     S. Farrell
         Status:     Standards Track
         Stream:     IETF
         Date:       March 2021
         Mailbox:    logan@cyberstorm.mu,
                     stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie
         Pages:      6
         Updates:    RFC 8314

         I-D Tag:    draft-ietf-uta-tls-for-email-05.txt

         URL:        https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8997

         DOI:        10.17487/RFC8997
 >>>>>>>>

The information isn't available at 
https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8997, but it must be somewhere. I 
have no idea how it's calculated. It could be made available more 
widely. This would help people who measure reading effort in pages but 
would still inhibit citing by page.


On 2021-04-13 01:46, Carsten Bormann wrote:

> Yes, but assessing the size of a document (which is what this thread is about) by section count doesn’t work so well.  The page count of the PDF is the only ready-made metric we have today.  Putting in another metric (e.g., word count(*)) might be helpful.

Another count is bytes. I seem to remember when RFC (or was in I-D) 
announcements came with byte counts. Checking, I found that up to RFC 
8649, there is a 'Character' count (see 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/B2v9FoL7UpnVS20fNmViiDwWfxU) 
but there isn't anymore starting with RFC 8650 
(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/VVRlgHG5zAov4N6xSPLEDPziaOg) 
Such a count could be reintroduced if appropriately defined. It should 
probably only count net content characters, not gross count including 
markup.


> Grüße, Carsten
> 
> (*) ...where that often doesn’t actually count words but characters and then divides that count by 6 (or 5!), which better copes with different complexity grades.

Both on a personal level and/or on an institutional level, it may be 
possible to develop some estimates of characters per page or words per 
page, and so on.


Regards,   Martin.

v2.28.0 | Report a Bug | By Email | System Status