[Tools-discuss] "Discuss this RFC" (was Re: Datatracker login for errata
Jean Mahoney <jmahoney@amsl.com> Tue, 30 May 2023 14:15 UTC
Return-Path: <jmahoney@amsl.com>
X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707B2C14F748 for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 30 May 2023 07:15:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GjRe0vWZfroo for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 30 May 2023 07:14:59 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from c8a.amsl.com (c8a.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BE64C151551 for <tools-discuss@ietf.org>; Tue, 30 May 2023 07:14:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC719424FFFD; Tue, 30 May 2023 07:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqDXmnsjAJ6c; Tue, 30 May 2023 07:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.203] (unknown [47.186.48.51]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 92A2F424CD01; Tue, 30 May 2023 07:14:55 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <122ca100-a1b8-afcc-035f-9f2046ddd5e6@amsl.com>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 09:14:54 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.11.1
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, tools-discuss@ietf.org
References: <CABcZeBOkf9Z_bAMcUroHd44DOmBa60=qq0u4V8EJPDU2tUoi4A@mail.gmail.com> <20230528172358.B9953DF9249C@ary.qy> <CABcZeBP9A7rYCZsJC9gVrxzMKLpiSBqJUjCX9VN7_mf0fDtv1w@mail.gmail.com> <125bbed2-7f3e-71c1-e26c-7e5f8c55bd2f@gmail.com> <D4C6C897EA2F505AC1DC2018@PSB> <450426b6-ade4-069d-7201-e64f5e1b2849@gmail.com>
Content-Language: en-US
From: Jean Mahoney <jmahoney@amsl.com>
In-Reply-To: <450426b6-ade4-069d-7201-e64f5e1b2849@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/YwBrZbjW0NsThCcp8rPTIUXPKs0>
Subject: [Tools-discuss] "Discuss this RFC" (was Re: Datatracker login for errata
X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion <tools-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tools-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:tools-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 14:15:03 -0000
Hi all, On 5/28/23 11:02 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Top posting, because basically I agree (the argument about captcha > vs login required is only the tip of an iceberg). It's indeed a bit > odd that a site hosting "requests for comments" doesn't have a > "comment here" button. [JM] The info page for each RFC has a link labeled "Discuss this RFC" with a link to the working group or research group mailing list or stream manager alias (in the case of Independent stream docs). For example: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc793 (IESG (Legacy)) https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3261 (sipcore) https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9180 (cfrg) https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9370 (ipsec) https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9385 (ISE) https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9318 (IAB) The info page also provides a link to the RFC's datatracker page ("View history of RFC NNNN"). Best regards, Jean > We probably do need a policy discussion on this. > > Regards > Brian > > On 29-May-23 14:04, John C Klensin wrote: >> >> >> --On Monday, May 29, 2023 07:57 +1200 Brian E Carpenter >> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 29-May-23 06:38, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 10:24 AM John Levine >>>> <johnl@taugh.com <mailto:johnl@taugh.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> It appears that Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com >>>> <mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>> said: >>>> > -=-=-=-=-=- >>>> > >>>> > I see that you now need to solve a captcha to submit >>>> > errata, as well as type in your name and email. This >>>> > seems like unnecessary friction. >>>> >>>> We're still getting a lot of junk errata. >>>> >>>> >>>> If we're still getting them, that doesn't seem like a great >>>> endorsement for the captcha. >>>> >>>> >>>> > Perhaps we could have a datatracker login version that >>>> > bypassed the captcha and filled this stuff in. >>>> >>>> Actually, I wouldn't mind if you could only submit errata >>>> with a DT login. I don't recall seeing many real errata >>>> from names I didn't recognize. >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't feel strongly about DT only; I'm merely arguing that >>>> a DT option would be a good idea. >>> >>> Yes. I think it would be very parochial to refuse errata from >>> outsiders. A bad look for an open standards organisation. >> >> Brian, >> >> I'm actually not sure. Many of the errata I've seen have been >> spurious or basically change requests for the specification. >> Others have been corrections of trivial editorial or >> typographical errors. Certainly the latter, and at least some >> of the former, may be indicative of what you described in a >> later note as "dull lives" and that I would describe as "too >> much time on their hands". I have no idea what percentage of >> the total errata submissions fall into those categories; perhaps >> even a subjective impression (no elaborate data collection or >> analysis needed) from the RPC about the number of errata reports >> that are substantive, useful (i.e., not a protocol change >> request or equivalent), and that are resolved in a positive way >> (with neither "hold for document update" nor "rejected" counting >> as positive). >> >> Equally important our errata processing procedure for IETF >> Stream documents (at least) seems to me to be very costly in >> terms of the number of people and groups who need to get >> involved. That, in combination with the above, makes the errata >> system a good candidate as a vector for DoS attacks, whether we >> have seen that yet or not. If making someone create an account, >> supply an address that can be authenticated, or something >> similar reduces that risk, improves the S/N ratio, or both, I >> think that is good process management what than parochial >> behavior. >> >> I also note that we have no formal mechanism for people to ask >> questions about interpretation of a specification (especially >> standards track ones). There are good reasons for that, most >> having to do with how we would establish community consensus >> about the answer, but, given that insiders can approach other >> insiders in the real or virtual halls, that seems far more >> parochial than some minor impediments in the errata process. >> And, of course, to the extent that errata reports are used as a >> substitute for clarification questions, that is another problem >> with the current model. >> >> FWIW, once upon a time, the RFC errata process consisted of an >> answer to any input that said approximately "if this is >> important enough, become part of the process and get started on >> a revision; if it is less so, we will leave notes for the >> author(s) of the document and keep informal notes that would >> inform any future revision". It would be really easy to >> automate that process and be sure that everything was logged. >> I'm not entirely clear that the current process --especially >> given concerns about whether RFCs that are essentially changed >> by errata still represent community consensus -- are actually an >> improvement. >> >> best, >> john >> >> p.s. this discussion seems to be moving in a direction (even >> before the note above) that should be handled as an RFC Series >> policy matter rather than a tools question. >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Brian >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org - >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >> >> > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org - > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John Levine
- [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John Levine
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John R Levine
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Tim Wicinski
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John R Levine
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Bob Hinden
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John R Levine
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John C Klensin
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Salz, Rich
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Michael Richardson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John C Klensin
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John C Klensin
- [Tools-discuss] "Discuss this RFC" (was Re: Datat… Jean Mahoney
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Jean Mahoney
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John Levine
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Jean Mahoney
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Michael Richardson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Jean Mahoney
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John C Klensin
- Re: [Tools-discuss] "Discuss this RFC" (was Re: D… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tools-discuss] "Discuss this RFC" (was Re: D… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Jean Mahoney
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata John C Klensin
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Martin Thomson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Jean Mahoney
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Robert Sparks
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Robert Sparks
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Jean Mahoney
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Jean Mahoney
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker login for errata Brian E Carpenter