Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip

Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> Thu, 01 October 2020 19:21 UTC

Return-Path: <adam@nostrum.com>
X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C15A3A0E5A for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.292
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rcJDiBB1zmCH for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A50D93A0E24 for <tools-discuss@ietf.org>; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:21:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [172.17.121.48] (76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 091JLqgw027353 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for <tools-discuss@ietf.org>; Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:21:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1601580114; bh=Y7mTMh/PFTxOawlS9zTjRpl0+ZwQn5THTlyBBh4HILA=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=NEtJCdffdrY7UhE2AVa6uIlCtYNxufVu5vqng9n6POX9JdiQQRi3RvzkZAwTEl6T6 jc+SGP8IfbVyq3oNIk7ZVRLensQlUmTZr/VyDzKN15Qfenr75BrPr+M3/d7IP79jWr unfvSAusqw9wN5L3YstlnCKQj+AlO654qZ2lvPJc=
X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 76-218-40-253.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [76.218.40.253] claimed to be [172.17.121.48]
From: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
To: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <490acfb2-908d-39b5-dec7-5be314f4001e@nostrum.com>
Message-ID: <ae191148-5b4d-540d-89b8-309af7b232ba@nostrum.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:21:47 -0500
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <490acfb2-908d-39b5-dec7-5be314f4001e@nostrum.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/dTElir7nEtpO1Dgx4Ze9rnLsqQc>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip
X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion <tools-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tools-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:tools-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 19:21:57 -0000

Sorry for the noise, folks. I *meant* to send this directly to Robert. :)

/a

On 10/1/2020 2:20 PM, Adam Roach wrote:
> Off-list reply.
>
> I'm happy to hook you up with the person who did this exact evaluation 
> for Mozilla when they decided to retire IRC (for many of the same 
> reasons that the IETF needs to move off of Jabber). The punchline is 
> that they finally settled on Matrix, but there was a lot of really 
> detailed work that he did which could probably inform what y'all are 
> doing.
>
> /a
>
> On 10/1/2020 9:25 AM, Robert Sparks wrote:
>> We are deploying trials of the matrix and zulip chat services to gain
>> operational experience and get community feedback about how well these
>> services meet the need for IETF related chat.
>>
>> We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey
>> (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf) 
>> that many
>> IETF participants find jabber a significant problem.  This is partly 
>> due to
>> difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to 
>> client issues.
>> There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, one is to 
>> improve the
>> IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to an alternative 
>> groupchat
>> solution.  The community has already taken a step on the latter path 
>> with the
>> introduction of an IETF Slack space, and we want to ensure that this 
>> path is
>> properly explored by widening the range of options to well established
>> free/open source tools.
>>
>> The installs currently have almost no local configuration or 
>> customization.
>> Over the next few weeks, we will be exploring reconfiguring them to use
>> datatracker credentials for sign-in, and explore bridging between these
>> systems, Slack, and Jabber. One consequence of these explorations is 
>> that there
>> will  likely be times, outside of meetings, when accounts will be 
>> disrupted or
>> even removed and will have to be recreated. Initially, we suggest you 
>> use an
>> email address for the username on each service.
>>
>> We considered running these trials using instances run by the Zulip 
>> or Matrix
>> communities. We went with instances operated by the secretariat to 
>> learn what
>> would be needed if the community felt self-hosting chat was important 
>> in the
>> long-term.
>>
>> The services can be found at matrix-trial1.ietf.org and 
>> zulip-trial1.ietf.org.
>>
>> Any matrix client can be used with the trial matrix server. There is 
>> also
>> a web client available at at matrix-trial1.ietf.org.
>>
>> Similarly any zulip client can be used with the trial zulip server, 
>> which
>> has a built in web interface.
>>
>> We would like feedback on how well each client meets chat needs during
>> meetings, both the full online IETF 109 meeting, iterims, adhocs, and 
>> hallway
>> conversations.
>>
>> Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback 
>> received to
>> inform what chat services we provide in the future and how we will 
>> operate
>> them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not 
>> intend to
>> preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from 
>> the trial
>> instances as we move forward.
>>
>> This does add to the potentially confusing large number of places 
>> conversation
>> might take place. We hope to address that with some level of 
>> bridging, at least
>> with Jabber, but have been cautioned by the respective development 
>> communities
>> that bridging between Zulip and Matrix is unsatisfying since the 
>> conversation
>> models in the two applications are so different.
>>
>> The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. 
>> However,
>> please treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply (See
>> https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/).
>>
>> We are not, at this time, planning to host jabber accounts. We may 
>> revisit that
>> as an option as we continue to gather more feedback.
>>
>> Please send feedback on the services to tools-discuss@ietf.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> IETF-Announce mailing list
>> IETF-Announce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org