Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip

Johanna S <jhsrdr@gmx.de> Fri, 02 October 2020 11:44 UTC

Return-Path: <jhsrdr@gmx.de>
X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D933A0F77 for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 04:44:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.184
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.213, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_HTTP=0.001, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SOCKS=1.927, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yyYk_6hxiCxY for <tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 04:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01D683A0F2E for <tools-discuss@ietf.org>; Fri, 2 Oct 2020 04:44:29 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1601639066; bh=cLxcVQM34t5MxNA4MMGoV20ePlw6A3XsM6/iLdbA94U=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=N0VAjQFjsegV3J5YLtLQFlsFNZAQhyXgi4v+boCdKl0yxf8RI08JegXsnD4GmGR87 4fc2JwY6lZn/sZW4MY3Ua4HatEncc+U8nfnrB5rjAOHMRATJwbbmklbUPW4wa3bCty j+L8DStVNvbrC4pv3kOzW2LLwymlysFYCsiBns6I=
X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c
Received: from [10.8.0.166] ([84.63.109.131]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1M26vB-1kQFQO3TRZ-002bGG for <tools-discuss@ietf.org>; Fri, 02 Oct 2020 13:44:25 +0200
To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
References: <3817345c-e25f-ec82-47af-5216a6234560@nostrum.com> <6BFA5C6F-E743-44CB-8F99-6FCDC6F04DC5@fugue.com> <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org>
From: Johanna S <jhsrdr@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <3596d0ad-09a8-f0e5-4cb7-f3d00d56c626@gmx.de>
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 13:44:24 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <021f6ab0-57c1-1b8d-9942-81f205f5bf81@matrix.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:zw63wkDUsF9BSrutYk3DGMqYFqcHLMQUcxEx04m5WX+Tymo4ZL8 TyuKNlkyg6JIWP57sodbjjnvD9wVERPzq4lwdQgax58wJXOi7LR5yIncaoEjANaicEaeY0C U+XABUvIxZBoubIqdAAPRCUwZo1azdKkEnH55mT2yrrzjakYv55F1I+4OscGp/t/bK8Ylxr gspvQ/T8e5D81jrJXfibQ==
X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:dZ/B137H/zQ=:SZkvu6icTu5gl+8//FhvMM RibfwpFvwG+jz1Lkwf3WYZHtTOsTTWCvETsW6Rn5elf6pOLWODdr745OFepporYHKuqoNhOP9 RBAjDkmtRuUNCdR50DlYw02PDX5osEhrPH9uAvC6DgPiPp0e1W8w4XJJVdMoQPzxyuSfihMUa eeojivFLAE1cLDNKiyoYeyXw3rmMy7IXaDyUAx0NEvmQtyK+zaxfjcdiencCPCaDv7OzMVD41 MalH5BMCdau4yuMKelA4sozcaq5DJikFumf4RuobHCpMnLXw/GPMr6lkg5YCY5DqMyBXI9n/c WDXPe2hkZ6ffBH72vVIuj1+pN+KVB39bjLwsoMnjHxHcIR6sLCkZf1+yNV4rnupfDd85MrJ3O DAWCFUcwqMGZ6nWNKaHKr9eAStnJPwrq6UG1mvGPeZfFkT+qaEoKTQNs7ryi5pVw7aeOphi2d u9VG39qL9QCl2noQnhpUmxjPw0X6Rt0QPAozW6TEq2SGR9mDsu8qeiOOSCiI8ifVtY1GYkHaf k7jYdDTXxny63uxrvrIlblGJlBqi8BDnlSfpehBpQnPQt06lbmGxzb3gMPuBwWps2ONvYS1Yt 9t68ekzKTWCI4fUny2+onPj2hDFQd3RbYI9jPYeQeGv0RZ3s9gwwkkXE3QE/7TfmyD1X3+cZS KEY4BQeofeSZl3VTRji6EYfKx7rf07e6EX6kuFjAA8FBoM61q+zSMpoG6HzH6j/Q7YhK8/6jY +e7vCtCgg58mJJcYDlNbfjL9unaliu4U3PV2XklJWrT9s5/wk7KLjaVDtX56vGWT4eePGeX8s 6Xn+uweETb340+STnTeGTKp9xvj0v9SvsQo5VTpmUwrXJ7VpjTKUCnUn8gBotM6p2ly5mhUJH Rk9t805tF3D89GLYEe5k6RcrdU0SLs1E3CD1+7Mry8TCIBvPzQWLC1gkCRB0+Ndex3+iwYkg+ 66Q/SBIX1uQl58hZFKZZ0iSm7Dh1ZEjZt8s5h+MBgDyo1BktQ587W/YIRvKW0lV+hLvcUzZbJ 3KfjPZ9qZCCGzjQlkb6wHhqeQgarnoJhSO/VKn+tC/HOPD9EMqSXAIu2spo/iO5WzijMJOb88 ZgbwMYsqbqCIih7N+F6pwq2qItS5QBmo6ZgAYrUvwcNSNdmaR1/6GN2oRhIDdXsVdFT/Xq+n6 +rLpemoeRq0rHU3fkFWaagKKd1q5DdZhP2CH6u3JbNKbrOKzTL05LZ9DNwS/95VJ32CHmmrij MftjjXLgmzFHS7B+Y
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/v1F7WSXlX4JwVtcTy73P0-qfIrM>
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 08:37:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip
X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion <tools-discuss.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tools-discuss/>
List-Post: <mailto:tools-discuss@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss>, <mailto:tools-discuss-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 11:46:10 -0000

On 02.10.20 01:43, Matthew Hodgson wrote:
> On the other hand, XMPP<->Matrix bridging is pretty good

Not sure if that was meant as a funny joke or if you ever actually tried
to use that bridge from the XMPP side. It has such severe bugs that it
is hardly usable with any modern XMPP client. You can't even leave a
room [1]. I know several server operators that blacklisted the gateway
because its non-compliance caused problems with clients.

A good bridge is standard-compliant and gives good UX *on both sides* of
the bridge, not only on the Matrix side. In my experience, the bot-based
bridging approach (like Matterbridge) is a better way to do a
XMPP<->Matrix bridge than the bifrost bridge, when looking from the XMPP
side - because at least everything works as it should and is
standard-compliant, even if every message got an ugly prefix.

I have hard times understanding how Matrix folks praise their XMPP
bridge while at the same time XMPP people tell you that the bridge is
working really *really* bad. If Matrix.org was a for-profit company, I'd
tend to say it's just empty marketing claims to fraud customers.

Johanna

[1] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-bifrost/issues/53