From nobody Mon Sep 21 13:29:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-implementation@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-implementation@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAB83A08F8 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 13:29:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W607hwGIcbvj; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 13:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E24933A08EC; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 13:29:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <6B880295-8288-433B-A6B5-17C03076C7ED@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8BA1007E-43EE-4403-8021-AB9494A7C51B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 08:29:34 +1200 In-Reply-To: <8EC6DB09-5959-42CE-A218-98BCA2E103D5@vigilsec.com> Cc: Robert Sparks , "tools-implementation@ietf.org" To: Russ Housley References: <8EC6DB09-5959-42CE-A218-98BCA2E103D5@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-implementation] Rough draft of message to the community re Zulip and Matrix X-BeenThere: tools-implementation@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Implementation List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2020 20:29:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8BA1007E-43EE-4403-8021-AB9494A7C51B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 22/09/2020, at 8:10 AM, Russ Housley wrote: >=20 > Robert: >=20 > Comments below. >=20 > Russ >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 21, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Robert Sparks = wrote: >>=20 >> All - >>=20 >> First, note that Glen is offline this week, and I do not expect him = to see any of this conversation until he returns. But please don't wait = for him to refine this. I would like to have it in a form that we can = send by early next week. >>=20 >> Please point out (and offer text for) missing things that need to be = addressed in this initial message. >>=20 >> =3D=3D=3D=3D >>=20 >> We are deploying trials of the matrix and zulip chat services to gain >> operational experience and get community feedback about how well = these services >> meet the need for IETF related chat. >=20 > Is thee a sentence or two you can add about the things that we hope = will be better than the current solution? "We have clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey = (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pdf = ) that = many IETF participants find jabber a significant problem This is partly = due to difficulties in finding a free jabber service and partly due to = client issues. There are two paths to try to resolve these problems, = one is to improve the IETF jabber service and the other is to switch to = an alternative groupchat solution. The community has already taken a = step on the latter path with the introduction of an IETF Slack space, = and we want to ensure that this path is properly explored by widening = the range of options to well established free/open source tools."=20 >=20 > We expect the chat to support face-to-face IETF meetings, virtual = meetings, interim meetings, and virtual hallway discussions. We should = say that all of these are dimensions to consider. >=20 >>=20 >> The installs currently have almost no local configuration or = customization. >> Over the next few weeks, we will be exploring reconfiguring them to = use >> datatracker credentials for sign-in, and explore bridging between = these systems, >> Slack, and Jabber. >>=20 >> The secretariat is operating each instance. We've chosen this path = for these >> trials over third party hosting to learn what would be needed if the = community >> felt self-hosting was important in the longer term. >>=20 >> The services can be found at matrix-trial1.ietf.org and = zulip-trial1.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Any matrix client can be used with the trial matrix server. We are = also hosting >> an instance of the element web client at matrix-trial1.ietf.org. >=20 > ... there is also a web client available at matrix-trial1.ietf.org = .=20 >=20 > It currently refuses to create an account with "common" names that are = easy to guess. This does not seem ideal for the IETF community. >=20 > This should tell people what convention we want to use for these = accounts. >=20 >>=20 >> Similarly any zulip client can be used with the trial zulip server, = which has a >> built in web interface. >=20 > It currently uses your email address, which is not bad for the IETF. = However, I never got the email when I tried to create an account. = Probably needs plumbing into the IETF mail system. >=20 > This should tell people that their email address will be used, and ask = them ti use the email address known to the datatracker. >=20 >>=20 >> Around December, we will assess our experiences and the feedback = received to >> inform what chat services we provide in the future and how we will = operate >=20 > Where do we want them to provide feedback? >=20 >> them. In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not = intend to >> preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat history from = the trial >> instances as we move forward. >>=20 >> This does add to the potentially confusing large number of places = conversation >> might take place. We hope to address that with some level of = bridging, at least >> with Jabber, but have been cautioned by the respective development = communities >> that bridging between Zulip and Matrix is unsatisfying since the = conversation >> models in the two applications are so different. >>=20 >> The chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. = However, >> please treat them as contexts where participation rules apply (See >=20 > ... IETF participation ... >=20 > Some would argue that NOTE WELL applies to contributes, not = participation. You may want to word smith to avoid that tussle. I suggest "treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply" as = 'contribution' is specifically defined to include groupchat messages. Jay >=20 >> https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ = ). >>=20 >> We are not, at this time, planning to host jabber accounts. We may = revisit that >> as an option as we continue to gather more feedback. --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_8BA1007E-43EE-4403-8021-AB9494A7C51B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 22/09/2020, at 8:10 AM, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote:

Robert:

Comments below.

Russ


On = Sep 21, 2020, at 3:20 PM, Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:

All -

First, note that Glen is = offline this week, and I do not expect him to see any of this = conversation until he returns. But please don't wait for him to refine = this. I would like to have it in a form that we can send by early next = week.

Please point out (and offer text for) = missing things that need to be addressed in this initial message.

=3D=3D=3D=3D

We = are deploying trials of the matrix and zulip chat services to gain
operational experience and get community feedback about how = well these services
meet the need for IETF related = chat.

Is thee a sentence or two you can add about the things that = we hope will be better than the current solution?

"We have = clear evidence from the IETF 107 post-meeting survey  (https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ietf-107-survey-results.pd= f) that many IETF participants find jabber a significant problem =  This is partly due to difficulties in finding a free jabber = service and partly due to client issues.  There are two paths to = try to resolve these problems, one is to improve the IETF jabber service = and the other is to switch to an alternative groupchat solution. =  The community has already taken a step on the latter path with the = introduction of an IETF Slack space, and we want to ensure that this = path is properly explored by widening the range of options to well = established free/open source tools." 


We expect the chat to support face-to-face IETF meetings, = virtual meetings, interim meetings, and virtual hallway discussions. =  We should say that all of these are dimensions to = consider.


The installs currently have almost no local configuration or = customization.
Over the next few weeks, we will be = exploring reconfiguring them to use
datatracker = credentials for sign-in, and explore bridging between these systems,
Slack, and Jabber.

The = secretariat is operating each instance. We've chosen this path for = these
trials over third party hosting to learn what would = be needed if the community
felt self-hosting was important = in the longer term.

The services can be = found at matrix-trial1.ietf.org and zulip-trial1.ietf.org.

Any = matrix client can be used with the trial matrix server. We are also = hosting
an instance of the element web client at matrix-trial1.ietf.org.

... there is also a web client = available at matrix-trial1.ietf.org. 

It currently refuses to create = an account with "common" names that are easy to guess.  This does = not seem ideal for the IETF community.

This should tell people what convention we want to use for = these accounts.


Similarly any zulip = client can be used with the trial zulip server, which has a
built in web interface.

It currently uses your email = address, which is not bad for the IETF.  However, I never got the = email when I tried to create an account.  Probably needs plumbing = into the IETF mail system.

This should tell people that their email address will be = used, and ask them ti use the email address known to the = datatracker.


Around December, we will assess our experiences and the = feedback received to
inform what chat services we provide = in the future and how we will operate

Where do we want them to provide = feedback?

them. = In January, these trial instances will be taken down. We do not intend = to
preserve or migrate any account configuration or chat = history from the trial
instances as we move forward.

This does add to the potentially confusing = large number of places conversation
might take place. We = hope to address that with some level of bridging, at least
with Jabber, but have been cautioned by the respective = development communities
that bridging between Zulip and = Matrix is unsatisfying since the conversation
models in = the two applications are so different.

The = chat services are intended to be explorational and informal. However,
please treat them as contexts where participation rules apply = (See

... IETF participation ...

Some would argue that NOTE WELL applies to contributes, not = participation.  You may want to word smith to avoid that = tussle.

I = suggest "treat them as contexts where contribution rules apply" as = 'contribution' is specifically defined to include groupchat = messages.

Jay


https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/).

We are not, at this time, planning to host jabber accounts. = We may revisit that
as an option as we continue to gather = more feedback.

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_8BA1007E-43EE-4403-8021-AB9494A7C51B--