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Re: [tram] Fwd: Last Call: <draft-ietf-tram-alpn-06.txt> (Application Layer Protocol Negotiation (ALPN) labels for Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Usages) to Proposed Standard

Simon Perreault <sperreault@jive.com> Tue, 28 October 2014 14:25 UTC

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Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 10:25:07 -0400
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From: Simon Perreault <sperreault@jive.com>
To: Spencer Dawkins <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
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Cc: "tram@ietf.org" <tram@ietf.org>, tls chair <tls-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, Martin Stiemerling <mls.ietf@gmail.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Adam Langley <agl@imperialviolet.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: [tram] Fwd: Last Call: <draft-ietf-tram-alpn-06.txt> (Application Layer Protocol Negotiation (ALPN) labels for Session Traversal Utilities for NAT (STUN) Usages) to Proposed Standard
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On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 5:46 AM, Spencer Dawkins <
spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> What I was getting from Adam's Last Call comment was that this was a
> futures thing in the TLS working group, and that when the TLS working group
> delivers and what they deliver gets deployed, middleboxes won't be able to
> make policy decisions on based on ALPN labels because they'll be encrypted,
> so remove the text about making policy decisions based on ALPN labels
> because that will stop working.
>
> What I was asking, was whether there was any reason to point out that
> until the TLS working group delivers, this is a possibility.
>
> The current text included this possibility as a feature, and I understood
> Adam to be objecting to that characterization.
>
> What I'm getting from this exchange is that it's not necessary to point
> out this possibility in the TRAM document as bug, either, because the bug
> applies to all ALPN labels, not just this one.
>
> So, delete the existing text and don't add anything.
>
> Am I tracking the conversation?
>

Re-reading the draft again, if we delete those use cases, we are left
with... nothing. I don't see any use case for ALPN in STUN/TURN that does
not involve middleboxes. I don't see the point of STUN usage negotiation
since all usages speak the same protocol (STUN) and will be "negotiated"
implicitly later on, when a usage-specific message is emitted. So... why
are we doing this again?

Simon

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