Re: statement regarding keepalives

Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> Thu, 16 August 2018 22:53 UTC

Return-Path: <touch@strayalpha.com>
X-Original-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsv-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70FC1130E40; Thu, 16 Aug 2018 15:53:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.99
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ao4b1eBN3jxx; Thu, 16 Aug 2018 15:53:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from server217-3.web-hosting.com (server217-3.web-hosting.com [198.54.115.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2D3A130E11; Thu, 16 Aug 2018 15:53:01 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=To:References:Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Mime-Version: Content-Type:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=epLNcwtjQxSLNaHqJaicWrcnVtndvI+dvgUxDqjHesc=; b=1jMbw1MEIkJmy84gKXGlc08f7 poxDbJxsTR2gd1WxnFyHXKLfuqb5Y9vd/d+4u5dwUmoblbBl0eELmo2jvJJS/CAFNarGPFw2GTFEa 6CbVLEwdBJP2uYHZ8nerQcAdn4aFmi0pPH+oOHACC8MSk7iATAg8brtzFzta2P0kJvCylyGr4G9f/ 4n3t2sTsI0Gd7LHtLt0A9hupKHrjtKY+BnrONQ/kGR3Gu/pIlc+svpqJq8SQg35Jz39L5xX3m+EYa Q2VFhz2+NIrs0R/149PkqcHnfp61iZjKtPsFonQy2r8+pA1FhwEoOWki6C0A5bs/we+ZNfA4r9mKj ede5Llixg==;
Received: from [204.140.240.55] (port=49232 helo=[172.26.63.129]) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from <touch@strayalpha.com>) id 1fqR8R-002Dmc-90; Thu, 16 Aug 2018 18:52:55 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Subject: Re: statement regarding keepalives
From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15G77)
In-Reply-To: <20180816221059.GG40887@kduck.kaduk.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 15:52:54 -0700
Cc: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, HMikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>, "tsv-area@ietf.org" <tsv-area@ietf.org>, "tsvwg-ads@tools.ietf.org" <tsvwg-ads@tools.ietf.org>, "tls-ads@ietf.org" <tls-ads@ietf.org>, "netconf-chairs@ietf.org" <netconf-chairs@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <B3FA514D-4082-4C36-B487-B9B6AB46BF9D@strayalpha.com>
References: <D3326DE0-3F31-4045-B945-82B3F417BE4B@juniper.net> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1807201340240.14354@uplift.swm.pp.se> <B50DC954-CBB6-41C5-BE3A-F1DECD6046A5@juniper.net> <717202c9c6c6b3d083bfa4c8a9925e45@strayalpha.com> <6377766E-9A03-41BA-A4D4-8796F46278BD@juniper.net> <20180816221059.GG40887@kduck.kaduk.org>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com
X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org
X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12]
X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com
X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com
X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com
X-Source:
X-Source-Args:
X-Source-Dir:
X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsv-area/xJJrHsbA7P34_vjr98W27QCc6V8>
X-BeenThere: tsv-area@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Transport and Services Area Mailing List <tsv-area.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsv-area>, <mailto:tsv-area-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsv-area/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsv-area@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsv-area-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-area>, <mailto:tsv-area-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 22:53:04 -0000


On Aug 16, 2018, at 3:10 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

>> Keepalives at a layer SHOULD NOT be interpreted as implying state at
>> any other layer.
> 
> What's going on here in the last sentence is probably a bit subtle -- a
> keeaplive both does not indicate "real" protocol activity but also can
> serve to exercise the lower protocol layers (and, even, per the previous
> sentence, suppresses their keepalives).

That may be intended but is never actually known. Lower layers can compress, cache, merge, and otherwise change the effect a transmission st one layer has on any other. 

Protocols should avoid trying to do this. 

Joe