Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> Fri, 07 December 2018 21:17 UTC
Return-Path: <jared@puck.nether.net>
X-Original-To: tsv-art@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsv-art@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8279130FF1; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:17:17 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MARKETING_PARTNERS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRVedMteig1U; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:17:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [IPv6:2001:418:3f4::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 81ADB131038; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:17:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [IPv6:2603:3015:3606:cbe1:d96:a9a:20d2:74d1] (unknown [IPv6:2603:3015:3606:cbe1:d96:a9a:20d2:74d1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by puck.nether.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 160805406C7; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 16:17:13 -0500 (EST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\))
From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBOZ4bQoT=FPa0vHfd9UZ8siqhh7w88xurNOqNpNyF_S=g@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 16:17:12 -0500
Cc: morrowc.lists@gmail.com, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.all@ietf.org, heard@pobox.com, opsec@ietf.org, tsv-art@ietf.org, Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <BDEEBADE-EBC7-4BB6-9FB7-3B02EB57AEBB@puck.nether.net>
References: <CACL_3VGeJPzDhS0RVAvpQs9W8b4EODft-qJRwBD6Xxm+X6BZ6A@mail.gmail.com> <CAL9jLabK0bZz2nki=oFNHT0OrpVAB8pw7emAj2BtkHRCzkfmqQ@mail.gmail.com> <cf64abbf-e447-71e3-b983-4e525cc139aa@gmail.com> <CAL9jLaYMRDGFa7Qzj4ukRV1FPbJM40qbuZ34SYxoA30Z+h3EWw@mail.gmail.com> <20181205085227.GG1543@Space.Net> <9ba948f9-f286-1016-2dbd-f7056a15e744@gmail.com> <74d89efc-bfba-6e54-ebb2-d688e45b139f@gmail.com> <20181206125726.GG1543@Space.Net> <d078ea0f-3c2c-f782-4c1a-b54c463b48ce@gmail.com> <CAKKJt-eNCeV4hS=v99NGAYFkkmLdSO5Cp9gk2ojdbZ5vrU7img@mail.gmail.com> <90130407-2B6E-491A-AB9B-BEBB45604D50@puck.nether.net> <CABcZeBNB3scdEm0aF99KeD3F=JvqCU1yaxL1cepFhnE+dg=0Wg@mail.gmail.com> <CAL9jLaYiMbMfyLK8b97TEqNcJVaQzfyC=HZvo4F01b3KZaYdVg@mail.gmail.com> <B60C8071-9577-4935-A260-FAE0EF80AFCF@puck.nether.net> <CABcZeBOZ4bQoT=FPa0vHfd9UZ8siqhh7w88xurNOqNpNyF_S=g@mail.gmail.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsv-art/CxuQOBNnSrlUiRuz9F5WkenwSnc>
Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
X-BeenThere: tsv-art@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Review Team <tsv-art.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsv-art>, <mailto:tsv-art-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsv-art/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsv-art@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsv-art-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsv-art>, <mailto:tsv-art-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 21:17:24 -0000
> On Dec 7, 2018, at 3:59 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 12:46 PM Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote: > > > > On Dec 7, 2018, at 12:10 AM, Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 5:41 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > > > > routing area (key agility, a stronger algorithm than MD5). And of course TCP-AO doesn't attempt to provide privacy. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're referring to here? > > > > > > "TCP-AO is a lie, there is zero deployable code anywhere that supports it" > > > > was that the gist of his comment? > > it'd be the whole of mine... because honestly it's the truth. > > I had written out a series of concerns around the requirements operators have.. I can’t find the paper around my office right now I wrote them on, but the went roughly like this: > > 1) We have long-lived TCP sessions, measured in years. (Implied: many of the transport people really prefer stable routes without flapping/jitter/reordering from us) > 2) We use protocols that are stable as a result as transports > 3) Security area does review and says “why is MD5 still a thing” without considering #2 and #1 above > 4) When doing routing things like an iBGP mesh, key rotation can be complex in a multivendor environment when the catastrophic failure of the network substrate is the consequence of a software bug > 5) If these keys (md5) are in use, they’re not rotated because we got that support much later than the ability to set/rotate them and coordination with a network partner to rotate them is feasible but reaches operational impossibility. > 6) We need protection from tampering with the transport, not encryption of the transport. You will know where the routes go because I assume you’ve used a tool like traceroute before. > > I think most of these points are reasonable (I'd quibble about #3) but they're not very actionable. > > If you're position is that TCP-MD5 is all you need (and maybe not even that) then OK. It has problems, I’d like something “better” and a path to get to that better thing. I just built a Greenfield network and we used some better methods than my prior employer was able to use. We often get technology lock-in when we use things for “security” purposes. > If what you want is some protocol with other, different, functions, then you're going to need to be a lot clearer about what it is you *do* want, not just what you *don't* want. I’m speaking about the operator challenges we have. I don’t have a draft that’s getting caught up in sec-dir review because it still uses TCP-MD5 because there are no TCP-AO or other implementations, or a migration path to them. What I am is an operator that has experience in running a network, trying to be minimalist in my responses to the badness, and keep it up so the higher protocols can do their thing. When it gets problematic is when I can’t differentiate something good from something bad as easily and people decide to shift that line. I’m warning you where the guard rails are, they may get moved. This entire draft I see in the subject/cc line is part of that, here’s what operators are doing. EH’s are a cool idea, but they are also a security risk in that they may end up in the punt path or significantly impact performance of the forwarding plane in a way that could cause the networking substrate to cease to function as desired. These are things operators will work hard to protect to ensure it’s working. The network has limits and just because it works in some hardware doesn’t mean it will work in it all. We are stuck today in many cases with whatever we get in a BCM Chipset and that doesn’t appear to be changing (although I hope it does change, and there continue to be options in the market). There are many protocols that need to be cleaned up, just like most people stopped running chargen on their routers after it was used as an attack vector. The same was done with changing the defaults around “ip directed-broadcast” behavior. Expecting intermediate network elements to honor requests in EH’s is not likely to change. - Jared
- [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Michael Scharf
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Mark Andrews
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… C. M. Heard
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Mark Andrews
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … David Farmer
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Randy Bush
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of d… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Brian E Carpenter
- [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Joe Touch
- [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Smith, Donald
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… C. M. Heard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… C. M. Heard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Smith, Donald
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Nico Williams
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Pete Resnick
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review … Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Nico Williams
- [Tsv-art] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: game ove… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: game… Nico Williams
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: game… Gert Doering
- [Tsv-art] Engaging constructively [HbH flags [Tsv… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of dr… Fernando Gont