Re: [tsvwg] DSCPs and L4S: Label DSCP

Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> Tue, 01 June 2021 18:18 UTC

Return-Path: <chromatix99@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C8B53A2284 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Jun 2021 11:18:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.847
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gBJx7jQgEVJT for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 1 Jun 2021 11:18:39 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E08C93A2280 for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Tue, 1 Jun 2021 11:18:38 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id a5so23271159lfm.0 for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Tue, 01 Jun 2021 11:18:38 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=2I0oX6MwYjMQ7JBC2Wzs/EFsf1bh7VnW1s1m+d0qdUA=; b=Rx/nAaYV376z2uEPAI57Zrf9kcYNK2iXJ/tkQxDkU1R6j1vTiQJmE8ZVeqLdaIqDBe CENWydEaVDrU1ej3/9V48oLxDP+9bPCOIutX/3Q/Q6qh5GabXcuYwB2/XyVmBtoOzitZ MFBd8Cs8yU/7rTIWT5mYw4dG7guMKISj+JTFhIeMG2OjEnx/bz2DrsFdlVnKocm04dOk IgtP2i0NTrz9IMQYqPZcwWxPQ8C2UgP96uY/H68H6h3JwgKYVf/OyY10YDLXcmTvzFds AAHgCKgHyE5djBal+91HQLqH0/TPSUTymBvpxg9X4HQfIsv4CvxNVDnCtUzE85lFsQZY XHpg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=2I0oX6MwYjMQ7JBC2Wzs/EFsf1bh7VnW1s1m+d0qdUA=; b=RuvrkMo6+oEWrQnpDg8Wv9GJOv5+BpjhSh/WpwozhOTWgcU6ioG2YmrKeBcRs3id3Z xfAjfG1DeQB9KK0fNXkVnpwMlvBZmiSJDkXgU75d0unCQlQH+4LnhpyV7aHoORX2FrS2 QApvJ+QGsCKOSAmgxZqr6dl7mVOQ5/lDi4rpzuRLAY2ep6elCtybbe1EecqHTdBd/xv0 dc2ehV2q8XrtvV0GbGXLPope7gQFW+JT2SL/D7NCqRIsB/XVrQIriq2LYhzPisPKmVV5 VCQv/qC7bqxCfWlJDfhTwM1Ucx8UbVkTSBztsBioVn+7tzCiUiI9kuUxTV0ykEH7tN3a tw5g==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530C/HcrIEPMaHlDUGgEuloWSvfkbA9E4BaP/hqfVntLT1XgigOT 15z0rTW4ndO6xbN/0iVtFYQ=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwlGE//rszZ91HRtZIUWXbLyMjklGRZxge6H0Pxg9cEdAqs31TfzDnsYXHicCbEL0/EvF6ffw==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3f8c:: with SMTP id x12mr19363568lfa.146.1622571515380; Tue, 01 Jun 2021 11:18:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (87-93-133-133.bb.dnainternet.fi. [87.93.133.133]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s2sm2094424ljo.14.2021.06.01.11.18.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Jun 2021 11:18:34 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.7\))
From: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CACL_3VHCQXV+yyg6PYCWxMF3wHOdQEap+vSd=s2-s07sWibKjg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:18:33 +0300
Cc: "Black, David" <David.Black@dell.com>, TSVWG <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <ABA32E4C-325D-4961-986F-71D5F5E262C0@gmail.com>
References: <MN2PR19MB4045CC6F321E5B64B152FF0183229@MN2PR19MB4045.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CACL_3VHCQXV+yyg6PYCWxMF3wHOdQEap+vSd=s2-s07sWibKjg@mail.gmail.com>
To: "C. M. Heard" <heard@pobox.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.7)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/0YJyj7VERYhpyFXiQBxYP2m7vXY>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] DSCPs and L4S: Label DSCP
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2021 18:18:44 -0000

> On 1 Jun, 2021, at 8:35 pm, C. M. Heard <heard@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> What I don't understand is how this proposal prevents an L4S sender from competing unfairly with classic traffic when traversing a non-participating domain.
> 
> Doesn't the sender need feedback from the receiver that the label DSCP was received? And the the the receiver is itself capable of providing the type of CE feedback that the L4S send needs?

My understanding of this is that L4S traffic is not supposed to *exist* outside of the networks participating in the experiment.  The measures to enforce that invariant are:

1: Don't deploy L4S endpoints outside the participating networks.

2: Use existing Diffserv management infrastructure at the participating networks' border to prevent traffic carrying the Label DSCP from crossing the border (or, possibly, to limit their volume to a presumed harmless level).

If I've got that wrong, I expect to hear a correction.

 - Jonathan Morton