Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16

Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> Wed, 10 June 2020 17:16 UTC

Return-Path: <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C0763A041D for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:16:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.102
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mbhnx4bJT_WF for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:16:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70043.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 065DB3A00C4 for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 10:16:01 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=RjFbQFCUFcDe3UxLZ6kQcj9JAiPGgASdXGCyi8IqwpdVewrWquUGiujaO4+5So1wIu4zKVAbddQxw4x8nlFJPIH1ldjOG2YS+P86OKefdaHbbwcUaJI9pedYJxU5q0J+22DQ8J247a0l3/V7dKd5l70dpuWaunk2zjaw7rryqx9yiOXeSBNB5nrjSYAWwziMI5rTk6qcc0BGuVTW5WX5S0M3mnce49EyJegZ+vKehTkBC9JhfBz3ctPL3WM9KOfSoIGQKbBitjVI3o0oBF1vo5xH7SqdpEhNR28MfMFuOfL3PoCn8U4zLezCcBALDl32CpkaX+wDkqVIIVBrdPRivg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=reHTTghL/JlqawdvKMe6UchApgF5mU4r4m6XAeZhRr4=; b=GZW+fFNH2oobEun9kbhoah4ENvVrT6JsFAY+K33ClemI2827cCXf3uQrsEaY8UbKvflsSgwZ6LzlCTgwp41NoGLZ/k6fs9zNDBIAJ0uxU2Up7b4oqQNtVXFFnONf7Difajm6AYs1/K2dBIPvrcQ3WTRt7ux8NNZmUSZPd3X+c/iXZJkguS6GAJT9TniP/waA+fdlRNt1DRYImKoWQcQwEWsF4/wag/ZiAPwjANNucHa3mbR89ISc4NWSCKY7RUbRbrvXcDxZ17PwS6KwO0seicPgqBvnaIaFhjJlT3mQSv7zpCV/ilyUI4jcX/SWOjqMeTraFzcW9/07Q3kfmbCFOQ==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=reHTTghL/JlqawdvKMe6UchApgF5mU4r4m6XAeZhRr4=; b=Lj665z4a34xdmUBC5QtjJifvGk0NoJY2b+OPHTOKJFOumY2ulJDYC2jBnqIyuw05CdWJzAzHiaNe3jbsTTJTjJlwQ+iXi7sqAW8ZRe6zrjg1AKpwz0UxtesNvWPqW4f/qAzeUVloTTUFMs/Ew8ZBKpc3mK3sWeoaIgV0YwBZaQg=
Received: from HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:3:56::8) by HE1PR0701MB2780.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:3:9d::16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3109.7; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:15:58 +0000
Received: from HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f411:8f72:4035:41d1]) by HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f411:8f72:4035:41d1%8]) with mapi id 15.20.3088.018; Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:15:58 +0000
From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
CC: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16
Thread-Index: AQHWPkYZyJNg6cgsQkOoRWoF9Fsxh6jQUFNQgAAFjoCAAAT/IIAABjQAgAAXTICAACKkgIAAFF2AgACvbJCAABzFAIAAByHAgABOV4CAAA2VUIAADWgAgAArITA=
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:15:58 +0000
Message-ID: <HE1PR0701MB287670627208FB1075F78F6DC2830@HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <HE1PR0701MB2876AA3CBBA215B9FB895B0AC2820@HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <3637517F-63A0-4862-9885-AB5EA7E6C273@gmail.com> <VI1PR0701MB2877E21B7F406C3DFCFF08BCC2820@VI1PR0701MB2877.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <92525827-39B6-4E88-B453-660F8FE22523@gmx.de> <VI1PR0701MB287768D465C37DC46A459C12C2820@VI1PR0701MB2877.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <57D7632A-594E-47BC-B6B0-5FBC22AAFE37@gmail.com> <DF67B660-DE2B-4EB8-AD77-5FECF27D1BAC@gmx.de> <HE1PR0701MB287679D1842F15FCDAC6223EC2820@HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <7EEF7075-396F-4565-89C6-674CBB1E6CB8@gmx.de> <HE1PR0701MB28767A1E570A705EBC65EFC4C2830@HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <5ADEBD56-1A2C-4C34-9132-E50A4A7A4A42@gmx.de> <HE1PR0701MB287695F2245A480A43DB5F9BC2830@HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <EEB9B5D1-5F06-4BA6-A078-BE9C26D0EAD6@gmail.com> <HE1PR0701MB2876726FC67BD2850B5D39FAC2830@HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <E17FCDCD-6D2D-4773-98AA-44EB54A79F62@gmx.de>
In-Reply-To: <E17FCDCD-6D2D-4773-98AA-44EB54A79F62@gmx.de>
Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: gmx.de; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmx.de; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com;
x-originating-ip: [83.227.122.88]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3fb8ed1f-f36a-4ae8-c0fd-08d80d61f192
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR0701MB2780:
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <HE1PR0701MB27801AABF34D7C316AB511F5C2830@HE1PR0701MB2780.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4941;
x-forefront-prvs: 0430FA5CB7
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: jWxTwQQy0i62WAABW9wtQlj9n9JvMjCcnMA/VwxJXlKssv3UMZEeu8edSTQE0OslYYVY+x+oto8x5rc2UG//wWCb5lmuD/U4aK8MUCA8aGU3gDgYG63NpqwM+B+y6ezbtfF2eAKLAjstGpoC+ZCEhs2Cbcg6/kV7gibwmJ5/9pGUIlm0IObZIQEM5YKm+b0jtDzvbGUbf1Kkq/N3TNXGMe8CvyE7taljiZYKonjAJuW19R3Sga+bzwkja3Q8FdLhG4ccad8TzgZ886i7mvizEO2nzhCIbDDa+UjkNLJKwoobBWBZQq01HE6e8DLqc1JnpRVpaLZ3i10vJqSFjdyQgBqHP7DEzjlwXIdqGP/rappJzRBnkswuVu9zZHPAAy7VmjSXtSRkm6CofPMMEZ1Tfg==
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:HE1PR0701MB2876.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(4636009)(346002)(376002)(366004)(136003)(396003)(39860400002)(86362001)(33656002)(478600001)(55016002)(8936002)(66574014)(52536014)(9686003)(8676002)(107886003)(83380400001)(5660300002)(53546011)(54906003)(6916009)(186003)(6506007)(26005)(66616009)(316002)(66476007)(64756008)(66946007)(66556008)(99936003)(66446008)(2906002)(76116006)(7696005)(71200400001)(4326008); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009C_01D63F5B.918F74C0"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3fb8ed1f-f36a-4ae8-c0fd-08d80d61f192
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Jun 2020 17:15:58.7651 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: CyW5h+A5zKOsmjPUPFzf7/OJ8JhCwpG6jhIlRy8YTwTSVLnf8O3dFn6E3fVJJ33kTKDTbw43nFDq1MAJvx5o5vY6+lWwKq+1szfcu8+pRM0zlxmaX5V/YNwOcnKsUmJP
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB2780
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/RscOSTHynhb5FG05npaLDw5PA9Q>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2020 17:16:04 -0000

Hi

As regards to dualQ (below), do you see any specific reason why it would not
be possible to upstream (complexity/memory whatever) it or is your argument
that it is just not done yet ?

Also, do you have any comments to my three other questions, please refer to
earlier email in the thread for the context.
1) Do you have any public sources that confirm the numbers you quote below
?. I tried to look up data on this but it surely is not easy. 
2) Which foras are the vendors that manufacture CPEs active in (if any) ?.
3) As regards to endpoints implementing RFC3168, do you refer to servers and
clients or something else?. My interpretation is servers and clients and I
don't believe that they are central  to this discussion, or do I miss
something ?.

/Ingemar


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
> Sent: den 10 juni 2020 16:35
> To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> Cc: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>om>; tsvwg@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] path forward on L4S issue #16
> 
> Hi Ingemar,
> 
> to gently push back on some details.
> 
> > On Jun 10, 2020, at 15:59, Ingemar Johansson S
> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >
> > [...]I understand that traffic shaping on outgoing interfaces can be
> > applied in a Linux host but don't see why they become a problem
> > especially as there are qdiscs that support dualQ.
> > [...]
> 
> 	There seems to be a single out-of-the-mainline-Linux-tree repository
> (https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=e33cc533-bd9c7f5d-e33c85a8-
> 869a14f4b08c-0ec6a27e7722e722&q=1&e=29721776-06f8-43e4-a1e6-
> 67f0d2c15283&u=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FL4STeam%2Flinux) for
> both the dual queue coupled AQM and TCP Prague.
> 	I would not call that prrof of sufficient existence of "qdiscs that
> support dualQ" to allow Linux system admins to switch over to dualqand I
do
> not see how even inclusion into the mainline kernel* would this solves the
> issue for currently deployed Linux machines, which often use vendor
kernels
> which do not necessarily track mainline closely, especially for server
> distributions.
> 	I would respectfully argue that for safety considerations one should
> look at the current state of the internet and not potential less
problematic
> states one would like to find the internet in...
> 
> Best Regards
> 	Sebastian
> 
> 
> *) As far as I can tell there have been no attempts at upstreaming the
dual
> queue coupled AQM yet, so it is not clear what/if survives the contact
with
> the linux kernel maintainers.