From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
CC: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,
 "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "iccrg@irtf.org" <iccrg@irtf.org>, Ingemar
 Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] SCReAM (RFC8298) with CoDel-ECN and L4S
Thread-Index: AdX2sUQTt8TR64exRw6bAaEpFrsNEgAD11cAAACWSIAAAOWNgAAD4iVQ
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:37:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] SCReAM (RFC8298) with CoDel-ECN and L4S
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Hi

The SCReAM code is freely available on =
https://github.com/EricssonResearch/scream for anybody interested to run =
their own experiment with whatever AQM/ECN configuration.=20
Please note that SCReAM is configured in an L4S mode when the network =
AQM does L4S marking (mimicking ECT(1)). For CoDel-ECN however, SCReAM =
runs in normal ECN mode with a beta of 0.8 (=3D20% reduction on CWND for =
each congestion event)

I tried also with other different ramp markers (1ms/10ms), =
(2ms/10ms),(5ms/15ms). There are slight variations  in throughput and =
latency but not dramatic.
And truth to be told, the ECN behavior is better tuned in the code than =
the L4S behavior.=20
There is room for improvement as regards to the L4S behavior (for =
instance faster ramp-up) and it may well be the case that SCReAM is =
completely scrapped in favor of new designs.=20
But the bottomline, the L4S thresholds and L4S code is not carefully =
picked to show a good performance.

/Ingemar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
> Sent: den 10 mars 2020 11:28
> To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> Cc: Ingemar Johansson S
> <ingemar.s.johansson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; tsvwg@ietf.org;
> iccrg@irtf.org
> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] SCReAM (RFC8298) with CoDel-ECN and L4S
>=20
> Hi Ingemar,
>=20
>=20
> > On Mar 10, 2020, at 11:07, Ingemar Johansson S
> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > For the future studies we will only focus on L4S as the scope is to =
study the
> performance gain that L4S give for instance for AR/VR, gaming and =
remote
> control applications.
>=20
> 	[SM] How are you going to "study the performance gain that L4S
> give[s]" if you do not compare it with the best of class alternatives? =
I am truly
> puzzled.
>=20
> > Flow aware AQMs with RTT estimates as metadata in the packets is =
outside
> the scope as it would require packet inspection, which is not feasible =
if queues
> build up on the RLC layer in the 3GPP stack.
>=20
> 	[SM] Fair enough. What is this comparison intended to show us then?
>=20
> As far as I can see you paired an application designed for 1/p-type =
congestion
> feed-back with an 1/sqrt(p)-type AQM that was also set for sub-optimal =
RTT and
> latency target for the test path. And lo and behold, the application =
does
> "better*" for the 1/p-type AQM (with lower latency target; I assume =
that  L4S
> ramp-marker (Th_low=3D2ms, Th_high=3D10ms) was carefully selected to =
match
> what SCReAM expects). IMHO that simply demonstrates, that in =
communication
> it pays if sender and receiver of a symbol (CE here) assign the same =
meaning to
> it.
>=20
> But that can not be it, sohat am I missing here?
>=20
> Best Regards
> 	Sebastian
>=20
>=20
> *) Assuming one buys into your definition of better, in which =
(instantaneous)
> queueing delay is valued over video quality. From a network operators
> perspective that seems a valid position
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >
> > /Ingemar
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
> >> Sent: den 10 mars 2020 10:45
> >> To: Ingemar Johansson S
> >> <ingemar.s.johansson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> >> Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org; Ingemar Johansson S
> >> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>; iccrg@irtf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] SCReAM (RFC8298) with CoDel-ECN and L4S
> >>
> >> Hi Ingemar,
> >>
> >> thanks for posting this interesting piece of data!
> >>
> >>> On Mar 10, 2020, at 09:02, Ingemar Johansson S
> >> <ingemar.s.johansson=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> I recently updated the readme on the SCReAM github with a =
comparison
> >>> with
> >> SCReAM in three different settings
> >>> 	=E2=80=A2 No ECN
> >>> 	=E2=80=A2 CoDel ECN
> >>> 	=E2=80=A2 L4S
> >>> =
https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3D63019d27-3f884737-6301ddbc-0cc
> >>> 47
> >>> ad93e2a-489fa99c3277fb8a&q=3D1&e=3D5aab95a7-4aab-4a64-99a5-
> >> 5b55606e303b&u=3D
> >>> https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FEricssonResearch%2Fscream%23ecn-
> explicit-
> >> co
> >>> ngestion-notification
> >>>
> >>> Even though it is more than a magnitude difference in queue delay
> >>> between CoDel-ECN and L4S,
> >>
> >>
> >> 	[SM] So, in this simulations of a 20ms path, SCReAM over L4S gives
> >> ~10 times less queueing delay, but also only ~2 less bandwidth
> >> compared to SCReAM over codel. You describe this as "L4S reduces =
the
> >> delay considerably more" and "L4S gives a somewhat lower media =
rate".
> >> I wonder how many end-users would tradeoff these 25ms in queueing
> >> delay against the decrease in video quality from halving the =
bitrate?
> >> Could you repeat the Codel test with interval set to 20 and target =
to
> >> 1ms, please?
> >>
> >> If that improves things considerably it would argue for embedding =
the
> >> current best RTT estimate into SCReAM packets, so an AQM could =
tailor
> >> its signaling better to individual flow properties (and yes, that
> >> will require a flow-aware AQM).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> it is fair to say that these simple simulations should of course =
be
> >>> seen as just a
> >> snapshot.
> >>
> >> 	[SM] Fair enough.
> >>
> >>> We hope to present some more simulations with 5G access, and not
> >>> just
> >> simple bottlenecks with one flow, after the summer.
> >>
> >> 	[Looking] forward to that.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Meanwhile, the SCReAM code on github is freely available for =
anyone
> >>> who
> >> wish to make more experiments.
> >>>
> >>> /Ingemar
> >>> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >>> Ingemar Johansson  M.Sc.
> >>> Master Researcher
> >>>
> >>> Ericsson Research
> >>> RESEARCHER
> >>> GFTL ER NAP NCM Netw Proto & E2E Perf Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11
> >>> 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden
> >>> Phone +46-1071 43042
> >>> SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
> >>> ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com
> >>> www.ericsson.com
> >>>
> >>>  Reality, is the only thing=E2=80=A6 That=E2=80=99s real!
> >>>      James Halliday, Ready Player One
> >>> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


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