Re: [tsvwg] New Version Notification for draft-daiya-tsvwg-udp-options-protocol-number-00.txt

Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> Sun, 23 July 2023 17:02 UTC

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From: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2023 10:02:02 -0700
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To: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Cc: Yoshifumi Nishida <nsd.ietf@gmail.com>, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Daiya Yuyama <daiya@sfc.wide.ad.jp>, tsvwg <tsvwg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] New Version Notification for draft-daiya-tsvwg-udp-options-protocol-number-00.txt
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On Sat, Jul 22, 2023, 8:30 PM touch@strayalpha.com <touch@strayalpha.com>
wrote:

> On Jul 20, 2023, at 7:35 AM, Tom Herbert <tom=
> 40herbertland.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Daiya-san,
>
> Many people don't want middleboxes meddling with *anything* beyond the
> network layer!
>
> Besides that I'm not sure this is feasible, it would require
> middleboxes to process trailers which is not amenable to efficient
> implementation for a high performance implementation. Also, this type
> of marking could only be used with UDP and doesn't help with other
> protocols. You might want to look at
> draft-cc-v6ops-wlcg-flow-label-marking, it's a more generic solution
> that would work with any transport protocol.
>
> Tom
>
>
> If I understand what Daiya-san is trying to accomplish, this would be a
> step backwards.
>
> The problem is exemplified by netconf; there are 5 different assignments:
> over SSH
> over BEEP
> over SOAP over HTTPS
> over SOAP over BEEP
> over TLS
>
> The goal is to have a field in a transport header that indicates the next
> protocol, not the entire rest of the protocol stack, e.g., that would allow
> “next protocol” headers to continue to be chained through the transport
> layer. This would be useful for TCP, UDP, and SCTP. I don’t know an
> equivalent capability is already possible in SCTP, but in TCP it is very
> similar to the “service name option” draft of mine from years ago.
>
> The new proposed doc adds this to UDP - though, AFACIT, the service name
> option would work there just as well.
>
> AFAICT the bigger issue is that there’s no way to continue the chain past
> the transport protocol - other protocols don’t universally include a “next
> protocol” field.
>

That is commonly accomplished by encapsulation and an Upper Layer Protocol
(ULP) header-- like VXLAN, GRE/UDP, various RPC headers, ULP multiplexing
in HTTP 2.0, etc. The advantage of this approach is that the protocol
number that describes the transport payload is part of the payload, and as
Christian pointed out, this is especially important where the payload is
encrypted and we want to avoid unnecessarily leaking information about the
encrypted data.


> However, trying to use a field the IP header for this purpose goes in the
> wrong direction. The point is to create a chain as long as the number of
> layers of protocol and to put that chain inside the protocol layers, not to
> pull them all out to the IP layer flow label (which would not chain).
>

In the use case I mentioned, the information is purposely being exposed to
intermediate nodes in the network. The only proper way to do that is via
HBH Options (overloading the flow label with this information as proposed
is okay for an experiment, but I don't believe that could be
standardizable).

Tom



> Joe
>
>
>