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Fri, 21 May 2021 22:02:04 +0000 From: "Black, David" To: Sebastian Moeller , Bob Briscoe CC: Gorry Fairhurst , Wesley Eddy , "tsvwg@ietf.org" , "Black, David" Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] New rev of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-17 Thread-Index: AQHXTiKkbLgI9WqoDUWt4KtIsLA+Bqruc7QAgAAFTMA= Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 22:02:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <162158815765.22731.15608328324211025925@ietfa.amsl.com> <3F147A3D-BD68-4F0A-89FF-9A92284FF0A5@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <3F147A3D-BD68-4F0A-89FF-9A92284FF0A5@gmx.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_SiteId=945c199a-83a2-4e80-9f8c-5a91be5752dd; MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_Owner=david.black@emc.com; MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_SetDate=2021-05-21T21:45:41.6515804Z; MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_Name=External Public; MSIP_Label_17cb76b2-10b8-4fe1-93d4-2202842406cd_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Dell.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN2PR19MB4045.namprd19.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 529ce41d-c3d1-4e73-b4b0-08d91ca4114b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 May 2021 22:02:03.9098 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 945c199a-83a2-4e80-9f8c-5a91be5752dd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: H9waXBsYln9zjiXiJn9rlYyBV3pP/x+xUFffgWssXYj+GSCJXCrtcoLeFpcRM0aE9DcOH/SDJMQoXdyn+iqX1A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR1901MB2115 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-05-21_11:2021-05-20, 2021-05-21 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104190000 definitions=main-2105210119 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 06Mfj57CXCwFT3VQu3aiYdl3_MindZ1E X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 06Mfj57CXCwFT3VQu3aiYdl3_MindZ1E X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104190000 definitions=main-2105210119 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [tsvwg] New rev of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-17 X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport Area Working Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 22:03:03 -0000 > section 6.2 with its, "use two SAs, one for ECT(1) and one for the rest" = seems a bit limited The situation is more severe than that, and it's problematic if there's any= non-L4S TCP traffic that uses ECN involved. The two SAs are actually for = 2 ECN values each: To avoid this limitation, a VPN ingress participating in the L4S experiment SHOULD map packets onto two parallel SAs indexed by the lowest significant bit of the IP-ECN field. That indexing puts Not-ECT [00b] and ECT(0) [10b] packets into one SA, and = puts ECT(1) [01b] and CE [11b] packets into another. Non-L4S TCP uses ECT(= 0) and CE, hence a flow that carries any congestion indications is split ac= ross those two SAs. ECMP based on SPI (deployed technology) that puts thos= e parallel SAs on different network paths is not assured to preserve packet= order across those SAs, and packet reordering is not a good thing to do to= a non-L4S TCP flow. Thanks, --David -----Original Message----- From: Sebastian Moeller =20 Sent: Friday, May 21, 2021 5:27 PM To: Bob Briscoe Cc: Gorry Fairhurst; Black, David; Wesley Eddy; tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: Re: [tsvwg] New rev of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-17 [EXTERNAL EMAIL]=20 Bob, chairs, section 6.2 with its, "use two SAs, one for ECT(1) and one for the rest" se= ems a bit limited since it ignores that VPNs might propagate both DSCPs and= ECN bits between the layers, so IMHO a better approach might be to recomme= nd to treat DSCP+ECN bits as one aggregate byte (let's cal it TOS ;) ) as t= he extra ECT(1)-SA seems to be required for all SAs that already exist to d= eal with multiple supported DSCPs. So in a sense the recommendation would b= e to double the number of SAs. Also: "and the current draft of DTLS 1.3 says "The receiver=09 SHOULD pick a window large enough to handle any plausible reordering,= =09 which depends on the data rate." However, in practice, the size of=09 the VPN's anti-replay window is not always scaled appropriately." L4S on a 10 ms path under load can introduce re-ordering in the range of 50= ms (roughly twice the difference between the L- and C-queue delay targets)= , re-ordering tolerance 5 times of the path RTT seems to be a bit on the hi= gh side to expect, no? Regards Sebastian > On May 21, 2021, at 11:21, Bob Briscoe wrote: >=20 > Chairs, list, >=20 > We've posted a new rev of draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-17 attempting to ad= dress all the discussion since the last posting just before the interim. In= particular: > * review comments on a careful read from Gorry and the chairs > * the VPN anti-replay problem > * added an out-of-band test for an RFC3168 ECN AQM in a shared queue. >=20 > There are a couple of outstanding discussions, which I'm sure will contin= ue on the list, e.g. the role of RFC4774 and whether to remove any of Appx = C. But it was considered better to get the queued up changes out, to re-bas= e the discussions. >=20 > This is quite an extensive set of changes, so pls check and pass any comm= ents to the list. >=20 > Thanks for everyone who is contributing, and particularly to the chairs f= or continuing to referee this all. We've added appropriate thanks in the Ac= ks section. >=20 >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 > On 21/05/2021 10:09, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direc= tories. >> This draft is a work item of the Transport Area Working Group WG of the = IETF. >>=20 >> Title : Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) Protoco= l for Very Low Queuing Delay (L4S) >> Authors : Koen De Schepper >> Bob Briscoe >> Filename : draft-ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-17.txt >> Pages : 57 >> Date : 2021-05-21 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This specification defines the protocol to be used for a new network >> service called low latency, low loss and scalable throughput (L4S). >> L4S uses an Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) scheme at the IP >> layer that is similar to the original (or 'Classic') ECN approach, >> except as specified within. L4S uses 'scalable' congestion control, >> which induces much more frequent control signals from the network and >> it responds to them with much more fine-grained adjustments, so that >> very low (typically sub-millisecond on average) and consistently low >> queuing delay becomes possible for L4S traffic without compromising >> link utilization. Thus even capacity-seeking (TCP-like) traffic can >> have high bandwidth and very low delay at the same time, even during >> periods of high traffic load. >>=20 >> The L4S identifier defined in this document distinguishes L4S from >> 'Classic' (e.g. TCP-Reno-friendly) traffic. It gives an incremental >> migration path so that suitably modified network bottlenecks can >> distinguish and isolate existing traffic that still follows the >> Classic behaviour, to prevent it degrading the low queuing delay and >> low loss of L4S traffic. This specification defines the rules that >> L4S transports and network elements need to follow with the intention >> that L4S flows neither harm each other's performance nor that of >> Classic traffic. Examples of new active queue management (AQM) >> marking algorithms and examples of new transports (whether TCP-like >> or real-time) are specified separately. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-= tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id/__;!!LpKI!xeGDaVTRL33QRdX3Tos2AURXirtYtZXHcEP8W5a6OO_m4gWS= HU68p06V9qj70HfR$ [datatracker[.]ietf[.]org] >>=20 >> There is also an htmlized version available at: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-= ietf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-17__;!!LpKI!xeGDaVTRL33QRdX3Tos2AURXirtYtZXHcEP8W5a6O= O_m4gWSHU68p06V9vC50L2Y$ [datatracker[.]ietf[.]org] >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ie= tf-tsvwg-ecn-l4s-id-17__;!!LpKI!xeGDaVTRL33QRdX3Tos2AURXirtYtZXHcEP8W5a6OO_= m4gWSHU68p06V9oZoDRib$ [ietf[.]org] >>=20 >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/__;!!LpKI= !xeGDaVTRL33QRdX3Tos2AURXirtYtZXHcEP8W5a6OO_m4gWSHU68p06V9rKXcwvA$ [ftp[.]i= etf[.]org] >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > ________________________________________________________________ > Bob Briscoe https://urldefense.com/v3/__htt= p://bobbriscoe.net/__;!!LpKI!xeGDaVTRL33QRdX3Tos2AURXirtYtZXHcEP8W5a6OO_m4g= WSHU68p06V9gj_uPXC$ [bobbriscoe[.]net] >=20