Re: [tsvwg] plan for L4S issue #29

Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> Fri, 31 July 2020 18:03 UTC

Return-Path: <chromatix99@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B0C3A0BF0 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:03:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.848
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e37F1zIGAnFM for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:03:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6DBF3A0BFD for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:03:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id d2so11675808lfj.1 for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:03:07 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Y5FfikIVSJMDb4vG4b7wdTkTVIE3foZy+raIcNp0ZhQ=; b=MAL2bp0Izq7f5cQGrLXmv36768LprTVCIxU0sSgq7r9jf2b2+GR+F6Eskyt8g5QhW0 qfd+x9s5Z2dSs1tKGQyjn/THeVQPDQA8HKVmRWLJtf/AUlOmXbklHuW/2Fx0b4LEb5Kt VjPavb+htQVS3Nhj7zHGDxbP2pxVoLpdNG2k9xcd2KMiiXndmNDN1puSAHGIgT22RcMG YHcj67gVNHPJ8Ak4aeFOW50qKS1zG9zlB2tR+WyWNMLxBdQEM/MtJDceoQJEVGI/L9BM dIyMbnTFXNwyLjoWwWckv6jVmz/jTdw2IF+x1MgRG+QgE8fDHV60JlbmAVqxVc6bsXv2 99kg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Y5FfikIVSJMDb4vG4b7wdTkTVIE3foZy+raIcNp0ZhQ=; b=CQn8RVAFAx/Enxp1tQFtBKsjXBAp5K7NalgGpIpL+gGmDZfhu9Xl9H/TTqTpoxvKCG 88f+26wGI2krth2gpMlYLUQYWnpGZpuxKiPZejMUAWIZlTuPeRaOCjqmdGGdvOIWsP6x AD+XpwiHz2rRRbBt71r5G5hp3LDoeaDuxd46RwTj3an4fVSMRzVAkPSqXkEdF1gZwnKs cPusl9zHDx5QNDIJf0l5F7ipO/AkcGO0qQfH/Ibm5BxG7CMgJm+zlHqQ/FdqRa6e8LjW XgD8nsh0kV+w8gKGd0eityVJ4Qb8cPy17JTgcxisgG9DYrfuPH1mAAnN5DS53CAgvDqz 8x4w==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324ArYGT3/kILYKHLCcZ03an+RDOPrcoHa+j3RX9NoJ3iw+V2vj YiI4AOEfdWBtKhsEn8+CMyCCF8Rd
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxEL2+WkhDLS9m0HAOJp69/XuWovzPNezr15CJIPsni/zl/b5gP2pxJN7l/qBBjAwPwrcHaCw==
X-Received: by 2002:a19:fc14:: with SMTP id a20mr2613907lfi.0.1596218586056; Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:03:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from jonathartonsmbp.lan (83-245-252-162-nat-p.elisa-mobile.fi. [83.245.252.162]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w11sm2085795lff.62.2020.07.31.11.03.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:03:04 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.6\))
From: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <ca8ede0e-53a2-f4ff-751d-f1065cf5e795@mti-systems.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 21:03:00 +0300
Cc: "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <4FE5E2A4-7853-487E-82E7-7B74AA2B6FC4@gmail.com>
References: <ca8ede0e-53a2-f4ff-751d-f1065cf5e795@mti-systems.com>
To: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.6)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/Jyp5obWLkVGxfNJG43MY7Fi1fuI>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] plan for L4S issue #29
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:03:11 -0000

> On 31 Jul, 2020, at 6:41 pm, Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello, ticket #29 for the L4S documents is about classic bottleneck detection misidentifying L4S queues as classic ECN queues.
> 
> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/tsvwg/ticket/29
> 
> In contrast to other issues, it doesn't seem like this should block a WGLC on the L4S drafts.
> 
> 	• It is specific to classic bottleneck detection algorithm, which is planned to be worked on in the Prague ICCRG draft.
> 	• The result is sometimes failing to achieve the best possible L4S behavior, but doesn't seem to be an Internet safety issue.  This resulting in people turning off classic bottleneck detection would be a different issue, and something maybe the operator guidelines would address.
> 	• It seems like it can be worked on further in the course of L4S experimentation, without negative effects to others.

> So, I believe we should track this work in the ICCRG, and close the ticket here.  Please let me know in the next week if I've misunderstood any aspect of this and it should remain open.

Presently, the Prague congestion control algorithm is unsafe on the Internet without a properly functioning classic-bottleneck detection heuristic.  Additionally, the classic-bottleneck detection heuristic that has been published and demonstrated does not function properly.  This combination of facts absolutely *is* a blocker for WGLC.

Therefore, this issue should not be closed until it has been concretely addressed.

 - Jonathan Morton