Re: [tsvwg] FQ & VPNs (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-heist-tsvwg-ecn-deployment-observations-00.txt)

Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com> Fri, 19 February 2021 22:11 UTC

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From: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <52cb434a-bd91-6260-7be9-85bdbd07b625@bobbriscoe.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 00:11:22 +0200
Cc: Pete Heist <pete@heistp.net>, TSVWG <tsvwg@ietf.org>
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References: <161366419040.16138.17111583810851995947@ietfa.amsl.com> <BF0810D9-E742-4FCB-90B1-6957551B585D@heistp.net> <b222bbdf-70ae-3e5b-b122-1160299fb4e2@bobbriscoe.net> <E7CC88FA-F064-4B72-BAA9-8BE40F7AF040@gmail.com> <52cb434a-bd91-6260-7be9-85bdbd07b625@bobbriscoe.net>
To: Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] FQ & VPNs (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-heist-tsvwg-ecn-deployment-observations-00.txt)
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> On 19 Feb, 2021, at 11:54 pm, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
> 
>> However, I would remind you that neither SFQ nor fq_codel can distinguish between flows carried inside an encrypted tunnel, so this cannot be relied upon alone to make L4S safe.  Pete's data shows significant tunnelled traffic, much of which is probably due to people working from home and using VPNs to access a corporate network.
> 
> [BB] So would you not advise this ISP to remove the FQ on their backhaul, given they are serving large amounts of tunnelled VPN traffic?

No, of course not.  Max-min fairness is the gold standard, after all, and that is what FQ is designed to provide at a saturated bottleneck.  I honestly don't understand why you keep arguing, in effect, for RTT-fairness while promoting a specification which mandates working to eliminate it.

At a bottleneck which is *not* persistently saturated, FQ serves to insulate latency-sensitive flows from bursty ones, and sparse flows from spurious AQM activity sparked by transient saturating loads.  Are these not good things, even absent any rigorous notion of "fairness"?

It is possible, of course, that improved *perceived* max-min fairness would be achieved by moving to an algorithm that is fair between subscriber IP addresses as well as between flows to each subscriber.  Cake is capable of doing that, and I have plans to upgrade some of my other qdiscs to match.  Would that solve your objection to flow isolation?

> Debating games like this just turn people off.

Yes, they do - and in recognition of that, perhaps we could avoid going over old ground like this, yet again.

 - Jonathan Morton