Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt
Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com> Sat, 29 February 2020 00:10 UTC
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From: Erik Kline <ek.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:10:26 -0800
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To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>, tsvwg <tsvwg@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt
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It also seems possible that some UDP options ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-udp-options) might come along that could help things like QUIC effectively have a path-modifiable portion that (a) isn't a HbH extension header and (b) isn't covered by something cryptographic that would break if it were modified in-flight. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 1:03 PM Spencer Dawkins at IETF < spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, Tom, > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:31 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland..com > <tom@herbertland.com>> wrote: > >> While the draft certainly has improved both in tone and content, I >> still feel like there is one area that is very under-represented. >> Namely the possibility of using extension headers to carry necessary >> transport information that the network needs. I have brought this up >> several times, and don't believe it has been adequately addressed. >> >> Section 5 discusses extension headers (in a rather offhand manner). It >> > > You're talking about Section 5.2, right? > > >> is presented in a very negative light focused on the why they won't >> work. The crux of the argument in the draft is that extension headers >> are not deployable, RFC7872 is referenced as the basis for that >> conclusion. But as we pointed out, and even acknowledged in the draft >> text now, that is from 2016, so the data and questionable. But even if >> it were still relevant the conclusion drawn from it that EHs are not >> usable in any form is highly debatable. >> >> What the draft fails to mention is that Hop-by-Hop extensions headers >> are the ONLY protocol conformant way to signal intermediate nodes with >> data, including transport layer information, other than what is >> contained in the IP header. Intermediate nodes that parse packets >> beyond the network layer are not protocol conformant. This is not just >> an academic purist statement, this is DPI which is what has led to >> protocol ossification and hence is a primary motivation for transport >> headers being encrypted in the first place (see QUIC reasoning on >> this). Extension headers are also being dismissed because of protocol >> non-conformance in intermediate nodes. As often noted, RFC8200 has >> relaxed requirements concerning HBH options so that intermediate nodes >> can ignore. I believe that RFC8200 was published after RFC7828 >> potential impact of that change was not measured. >> >> So then one interpretation of the draft is that it is trying to >> justify one type of protocol non-conformance, on the basis it is >> useful in practice, yet on the other hand rejects the correct solution >> to the problem on the because of another type of protocol >> non-conformance making it not deployable. There seems to be a >> significant irony at work here. >> > > ISTM that the draft (if we're talking about 5.2) is talking about > interdomain use of hop-by-hop extension headers, which might reasonably be > deployed in a domain that you make decisions about (the subject of 5.1), > but are (let's say) more challenging to deploy if you're expecting them to > work between arbitrary endpoints attached to arbitrary domains, > interconnected over arbitrary topologies. > > I don't disagree with the points you're making, but ISTM that if the > working group wants to say hop-by-hop extension headers can be a plan, that > should appear in 5.1, unless someone can point to at least one success > story of hop-by-hop extension headers being widely deployed and used across > domain boundaries. > > Best, > > Spencer > > >> Tom >> >>
- [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-enc… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Erik Kline
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… C. M. Heard
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Erik Kline
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Joseph Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] Comment on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport… Gorry (erg)