Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08.txt
Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> Tue, 05 November 2019 20:19 UTC
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Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 20:19:22 +0000
From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>, "saag@ietf.org" <saag@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-08.txt
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On 05/11/2019, 19:58, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 10:02 AM Mirja Kuehlewind > <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com <mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>> > wrote: > > Hi Christian, > > please see two comments below (marked with [MK]). > > Mirja > > On 04.11.19, 18:46, "Gorry Fairhurst" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk > <mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>> wrote: > > Just focussing on the end... > > On 04/11/2019, 16:29, Christian Huitema wrote: > >> > >> [MK] That’s not the intention here. But we also need to > consider ways > >> to interact with the network where this brings benefit to both the > >> network and the performance of the end-to-end traffic. There are > >> situation where this is the case. And I don’t think one makes > sense > >> without the other. > >> > > You seem to be arguing for something like "performance enhancing > > proxies". End-to-end encryption is indeed a way to opt out of such > > proxying. Measurements so far indicate that opting out has very > little > > impact on actual performance, and that whatever impact there is > could > > be reduced by improvements in end-to-end algorithms. In fact, in > many > > cases, end to end performance is better without such proxies. > But the > > real reason for the opposition to the concept is ossification. > > Enabling such proxies would quickly ossify the new transports, > and a > > such there is a strong consensus in the end-to-end transport > designers > > to use encryption and prevent interference by such devices. > > > On PEPs: The current case for many of the network segments I > see is that > QUIC is quite good, but it is considerably worse (currently) > than a PEP > using Split-TCP. That's not to say it can't improve - but > that's not > true yet. However: It's curious that people keep going back to > PEPs, > because network devices that change the transport header were > specifically out-of-scope for this ID! > > > > This does not mean that network level deployment have no role in > the > > future. I could see for example tunnels deployed that use FEC or > local > > retransmission to mask the poor performance of a particular > subnet. Or > > I could see end-to-end devices opting into some kinds of > application > > level caching services in order to improve performance. But the > draft > > should be clear: transport protocols do not have to enable > > interference with the transport bits. > > [MK] This is not what the draft is asking for. > > > > There are also many operators - e.g., enterprise who rely on > the methods > currently mentioned in this draft. In this case, they also > actually *do* > care about the performance of the networks they operate. They > also do > care about the topics, which matters most depends on which > organisation. > > > > My take is that this draft should not be published as is. It > should be > > rewritten to actually reflect the consensus of the transport area, > > which has to reflect in particular the work in the QUIC working > group. > > [MK] The purpose of this draft is exactly to find and document > consensus in the transport area and in the IETF. I don't think any > individual at this points knows what the consensus actually is. > > > Well, in that case this document shouldn't be being advanced. > > > This document has support in tsvwg (otherwise it would not have > been adopted as wg document) and I also don't think there is > anything in the draft that contradicts any work in the QUIC group. > > > Well, I think what you're hearing is that people think that it is > badly aligned with the consensus of other parts of the IETF. > > -Ekr Than ks Ekr, but of course, I don't agree on your thoughts. Which is why this needs to be carefully considered. Gorry
- [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transport-en… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christian Huitema
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Christian Huitema
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-transpor… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Joe Touch
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Frode Kileng
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Colin Perkins
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Martin Thomson
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Colin Perkins
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… David Schinazi
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Tom Herbert
- Re: [tsvwg] [saag] Comments on draft-ietf-tsvwg-t… Peter Gutmann