Re: [tsvwg] Prague requirements survey

Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> Sun, 18 April 2021 14:54 UTC

Return-Path: <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491F03A1B00 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.101
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id obqF8S1IR7eb for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:54:52 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr80089.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.8.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C897E3A1AFE for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:54:51 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=C/6nRqVcxUy3ZnNiSpdTJtSDID8OG2uqgRk03yHL2he4lShndQSAvr6s5iKij4HTkm0WUMBbxc6xjvguRKvdLYwaIkxq3ra3pn1YeEccv9Pzi+hBOmQQ96M1VRKxJDvZuRNmVLnTYfkb3m2/N0qhtfWmJM8aFsPwnuuFlHuC8j10DSBv0M/jNVe0JRtte/qtf39ZW2x6crJQwrPh1AzD/KwkXC+z8Wyycd5Voh6Q4eD5Yc9TL1SknlQg7AxegJ01g57EbGgjfD6Bh0V/sfgebhBdNkaQDh/gWHF7hJ6rj89Wy8d5iSvbjPuPdTDEZqMVQ14mTD2M3XtZqBUWrV/GTw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=qp6g56QJQz2IROqc7JfifMEzJDXStLlSngGGbOnni/g=; b=DUwy1LjHkCUM7vS4BFiSdwBZHzoyekohKydYfJmcVh61H5LncxDyA4AOn+1OAaB4SJHDP/f4qvx4z53kBcg/PW2w2UKDW+GllEXyz3EdRLQDcfm8oI8agynsza8qP6asc4fZqVXJuiRv6p/Mggkj53vMB7iocDqNwKJD6oz67j5qnvw8OFoauWCSWs6kPUEm5GVNhwY5/aBoC+W613OMbbE0VfyG26QCorha/H1p6SyQ+VUbbwBD7KTlQuil44tE7xQ19mWMyOQy7KW19ID3uw8gQOydiesRf4n4IbVtqT6RR7y5jDPJVMeHiQcdvaaf76NWyMR3SvDmH5e8TjvF7A==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=qp6g56QJQz2IROqc7JfifMEzJDXStLlSngGGbOnni/g=; b=Wj3H6dcfeQVc56NKp171unGsMaAgAelOKB8dUyxlCBJPtMI1uxYSw3AEVVvGAaE63KMMGfsyKzjUbrJkFYt7bROxrQTwzxzYPvYodbbytXFTZa2EJ39McT99h/wPLbAw1G6MvkeU2ptKWuGfDkXwzA8/46EXCaKOp9MV0v52x3Q=
Received: from HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:3:6c::8) by HE1PR0702MB3562.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:7:89::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4065.7; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:54:48 +0000
Received: from HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::78cb:103b:9ddd:1850]) by HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::78cb:103b:9ddd:1850%7]) with mapi id 15.20.4065.016; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:54:48 +0000
From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
CC: tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Prague requirements survey
Thread-Index: AdbzPLYWoHtOCowHQ0uox2aN7ECzHgE/jRFAASKPXuAATuD/IAAGkG8ABHzn8YAAtrJEsAfOm5tAACnS94AADtbngAAC8DaAADrIY4AADG6qUAALCL0AAAG5mEA=
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:54:47 +0000
Message-ID: <HE1PR0701MB22997E22D5AE5E7195439CA2C24A9@HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <AM8PR07MB7476A907FDD0A49ADBD7CA7EB9BD0@AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <SN2PR00MB017475FC0E8C13754E531E17B6B69@SN2PR00MB0174.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <AM8PR07MB7476FAE559719D241375A816B9B19@AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <HE1PR0701MB22999C8C05ECA3D995FA7FFEC28F9@HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <AM8PR07MB7476E0EB3FC368D3C69A5466B98F9@AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <DBBPR07MB7481E1026CDE30D494856F15B9989@DBBPR07MB7481.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <AM8PR07MB7476FAEF53518DBFE457AC62B9949@AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <AM8PR07MB747629F14C5AEC5B47F40F56B94C9@AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <92C476A6-3E60-498B-A088-EF24E4B077AC@gmx.de> <83EC2DB8-C42F-4B1D-80C0-F01C2D393A9F@apple.com> <BB1A6362-FB51-471A-BF50-18C882C303E5@gmx.de> <DB7101BA-839C-44E2-B76E-C04F7963B5E5@apple.com> <AM8PR07MB7476F513E7A6551F27DC7295B94A9@AM8PR07MB7476.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <E50BC9F7-7871-4269-B521-E7DC28FF7512@gmx.de>
In-Reply-To: <E50BC9F7-7871-4269-B521-E7DC28FF7512@gmx.de>
Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: gmx.de; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmx.de; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com;
x-originating-ip: [83.227.122.88]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 11a8b09e-bea0-4747-a01a-08d90279e981
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR0702MB3562:
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <HE1PR0702MB3562303252F4A5CFBD454B1EC24A9@HE1PR0702MB3562.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: ZIl9tc3s1QRYCw4y063L/cGeQPkZtHCotJgP3JWhJr3Bq4YKlRE3kaONKmumc8aYps1XjKOnStvrj9Vper9kXBiQHRLSZeuDo8lWrks8y+6wqlQk91CnO+ccYNobbjaVb3m9Bds0rIRJ6F7fkCkbExmZMzPEt9/O4x8RU41GATmp4lpboiAVbs0/EL65+rfdln4OgfvkZd8IpFMG/bN8JwNxrNNKvSr/mGwxvXsMqHX8Kvam2AyAEbEYfmOBsjBHA9SGiofNx1TBxPyb52CRn4TES9MXuYrTgI4+COlD/T1N24REN70PMOlvQ7iz0KoOVBJMglgD36/DcoQyBUUHnFVElczzwL3KiG8ST4EykP/K3tRjF6sOvfjm6abc2kmD9vWa2VfD0X311Vrl24HxMfSAHAuYc8PzpIgs/4GztqytjMZMPTNnjv8/r6q9/0CVQaZuS9nnK13TVH32KajVyQGwoBsnrHG9GwbL4AHc2WvmdZpjapgI99Pj3REFyun8qtM0mEssyAw8GyUE2OYsmVVC9aqrbhAXEjz7Ww40BlEaaytVSIyrmpkRZ0Q80yN0Vnszw7Gqs+PZwGEtUkJpXkIw+NBdzfw8d+Ww1kOT5kVUGSxsKpfxujbTh4LJlVL00tx+rErJaLz03QSnC54CiSrlNsGyV8tIKTmcdKXnWQdxn9hYvzQnwTQ1hae2PqPC
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(39860400002)(396003)(376002)(366004)(136003)(346002)(38100700002)(107886003)(8936002)(33656002)(86362001)(8676002)(71200400001)(478600001)(9686003)(186003)(6506007)(53546011)(122000001)(5660300002)(966005)(26005)(2906002)(4326008)(66476007)(99936003)(66616009)(64756008)(7696005)(52536014)(83380400001)(55016002)(54906003)(76116006)(66556008)(316002)(110136005)(66946007)(66446008); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg="SHA1"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A7_01D73473.8989ECC0"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 11a8b09e-bea0-4747-a01a-08d90279e981
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Apr 2021 14:54:47.9981 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 2YYn4fPznwNTwA6owAFQVE4yc2Lw2Sn4wx3dsVLJKOHUJ8pryvwGiAr4YzTFUk6+90NQC9uHwSRg1x6mHE7Ugky/J3U5LvXmbc2nHYh4wyMlS+2NFX49qHN4zMm0rJuM
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0702MB3562
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/UvLQQDwBnoiABUWkTYz9Di7U_vY>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Prague requirements survey
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:54:57 -0000

The link below shows results (by no means complete) from an early experiment
(2018) to make TCP BBR L4S capable
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-iccrg-bbr-cong
estion-control-with-l4s-support-02

/Ingemar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tsvwg <tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sebastian Moeller
> Sent: den 18 april 2021 16:00
> To: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <koen.de_schepper@nokia-
> bell-labs.com>
> Cc: tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] Prague requirements survey
> 
> Dear list:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 18, 2021, at 12:11, De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
> <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com> wrote:
> > [...]
> > As a final remark, converging to a steady state rate in the past was
always
> seen as a property of a single mechanism (AIMD of +1 and /2 for Reno, and
> +cubic(t) and *0.7 for Cubic). I believe we are past simple single ACK
> response mechanisms (see BBR, ...) where models based on measurements
> and different states adapt the response and selects appropriate mechanism.
> When we detect we are out of steady state (0% or 100% marking for a
while),
> the selected mechanism can be RTT dependent (getting up to speed,
> avoiding latency, ...), once back in sync with the steady marking rate,
the RTT
> independent response can be selected (whatever the mechanism is).
> 
> [SM] According to for example https://arxiv.org/pdf/1706.09115.pdf BBR
> actually suffers from a reverse RTT unfairness, in which longer RTT flows
> overwhelm shorter RTT flows. While this is intriguingly hinting the
possibility
> of a control loop design that might fall in between the traditional
shorter RTT
> wins and BBR's longer RTT wins, it also demonstrates that RTT-bias is
still not a
> solved problem, even for modern TCP CC as sophisticated and clever as BBR.
> I take this as support for my hypothesis, that the end-points alone simply
are
> not well suited to solve this problem; no matter how convenient that would
> be.
> 
> 
> Best Regards
> 	Sebastian