[tsvwg] L4S vs SCE

Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> Tue, 19 November 2019 12:12 UTC

Return-Path: <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE50912085A; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 04:12:53 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.001
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wn_h42hffN3t; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 04:12:51 -0800 (PST)
Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr80081.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.8.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BC0512004D; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 04:12:50 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=NMaouHSPimXRRkXvgm+rTojcN+N7vzmI9hDIUVoVEbzP2Sw7Ihpfe+zL2S4btnQ1j2CEppo07xHqmYmlcIXiTfClzAYcrPHOH++Stv5I/mOlLs0xiQRLbKclyBfT7UaV2uZBdUe47+AB1WV5l9/i1wGtgCqvZUiWeglAdsHnCwEhiZjxbsXaHTAgSR94StsVhXYhdKuE0chc9xPGd+rf76k0qBItJCb53PSj/0HWP2Da14KcWjdazi+4peIMDhyFM5P+mPuFMGPKfL81nTYe6z8JFzNFYKA+aqMSz5GM5armuhIfHBfjkSRBNPuAK6nvoEnZ3CvHs9SYdq6HHEkOtw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=8ASg9SV9bPWmBR9RTq5ogTV970PYNfIgHuxIQQ1mQTk=; b=goB3XnA48x06qzglDrYC7U0lQQ+xot2vN5rxU/czIj5eLubRbpWyHJm7ciTRjL7lkNdxjJ8cjRS3j5qzXgXBp3oqSuB2B54SJqR8kbN9eWEwZ+GGQjN2fiiqr0ckPCVIEPRktTn1/bFZEfxuV/W2nr2yFmzD5ecZ5foXl48sRahoxyz0PhsdevzRGTTjT7q7U9EAIZe9sqe1v1oR/UGBzSzzZHNNeMvhm6HARyIXriGdOkiyNcveRNCXPHV5tmsuRsmM2jyy/U8dn8flpMGk+7C5tOT9hbBTCRbBY7Xu/PFJIqBogwhdzGMC9Q9+QdTKB2CPP+OXy5/hxcAgUld/HA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=8ASg9SV9bPWmBR9RTq5ogTV970PYNfIgHuxIQQ1mQTk=; b=qbkexHplL8YX4D/xG4FKwtY2yXgzYWpVAam64GYQNPuMfhNET4X5rQ5BIuBHFWjjNacaVpT7BsKoHCNkMXMfhxtWK+OUuIfFtDGFzr3VIBJc23alXtWUM2Kp7UrBluERmJUvmiKvAEk1IQ2+MF59Cs1AOpD/ngCh6dzPjPGlAAs=
Received: from HE1PR07MB4425.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.176.162.29) by HE1PR07MB4299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.176.166.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2474.13; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:12:48 +0000
Received: from HE1PR07MB4425.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc3f:bc2e:d106:e087]) by HE1PR07MB4425.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc3f:bc2e:d106:e087%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2474.015; Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:12:48 +0000
From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: "tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org" <tsvwg-chairs@ietf.org>
CC: "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, "De Schepper, Koen (Koen)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia.com>, "Bob Briscoe (ietf@bobbriscoe.net)" <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>, Greg White <g.white@CableLabs.com>, Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>, "4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net" <4bone@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: L4S vs SCE
Thread-Index: AdWe0nrRkrzku9jhQamw6kS06Hsgqg==
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:12:48 +0000
Message-ID: <HE1PR07MB44250F3C4E6A744DDCC3DAFCC24C0@HE1PR07MB4425.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com;
x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.82]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a2a3323d-8ff3-43cb-d255-08d76ce9cb25
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR07MB4299:|HE1PR07MB4299:
x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <HE1PR07MB42996365792D3D9F6BEEE624C24C0@HE1PR07MB4299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4502;
x-forefront-prvs: 022649CC2C
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(136003)(376002)(366004)(396003)(346002)(39860400002)(189003)(199004)(71190400001)(6506007)(6916009)(8676002)(25786009)(316002)(71200400001)(7116003)(2906002)(54906003)(6436002)(107886003)(256004)(66616009)(4743002)(305945005)(74316002)(14454004)(66066001)(86362001)(3846002)(55016002)(2501003)(6116002)(5660300002)(99286004)(15974865002)(76116006)(4326008)(66574012)(26005)(186003)(33656002)(102836004)(66946007)(9686003)(7696005)(486006)(476003)(7736002)(81156014)(81166006)(8936002)(5640700003)(66556008)(52536014)(66446008)(64756008)(66476007)(478600001)(2351001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:HE1PR07MB4299; H:HE1PR07MB4425.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: tJXb9dby3AF+8BrM8qx/JxSGCuEX20xoJgZOY6Z//8AJglB6AKhpAmVz9Y++rouwUFn4CCzqg4raUIAgBHfNNg4UKddOwbaRsKkw15oyTStexPbe/Q7301gSrkCW0byF7Tcrnkz104HPXboSxmyHdwWZfMc/rBUvp70yVoOhozzQL8qv4ScZYeOKsJrYsn+/SzEa8rngVWnbCZu4QCBI+cPMy8DSAJmLh0fRcXaFZ/36lnf0GtatsBdjj63Gl5KUDiOhpwds3FpUwalLjLHELo5Fp/WKEez94AB8+lDr1+JeYMQ4IUfQxeICUel0b5lkLDBJjeTMHyEfCOWZZp6Cvv0gLgAtbD6wtEcPmatW4Dpc84HubZkOOA1jscp6BHZh+horfapak5XJ0K+gXsvZZUCVHhm508X5fjnnODIb9bC/uh4siQVSCizWA3BmkAHX9jvShfqtzvHOassKcZTw6aKgeLBgd/ZG6z9+d4LDjm4=
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0385_01D59EDB.098DC4D0"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a2a3323d-8ff3-43cb-d255-08d76ce9cb25
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Nov 2019 12:12:48.6358 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: v8PeBnQ2zdNyOpDKh9yusjtAlbvVPDJzR/ZHkKpdYjfqy3K6TsRLMC2r0qEaKD308+mlKzfoSLJAoZ9EaTS4QjMxdbNu+9erNEcgxNyy0QVFoCAmZvTJx0sLw5RMN5OT
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB4299
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/Ym_AXmNR96b0DB3v9KFBuJ22Rw8>
Subject: [tsvwg] L4S vs SCE
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:12:54 -0000

Hi Chairs + others

I am not convinced that all these L4S vs SCE mail threads will make us any wiser.
 
The first question is around how safe L4S is to deploy on the internet and the proof points for either option differ widely. 

The other question is if we should have another ECN experiment (SCE) at this stage, also here I see that we have vastly differing opinions. 

In both discussion points I see that the discussion is going in circles.
My personal conclusion is that on a technical level it will be real hard to come to an agreement.  

On a more non-technical matter, I have argued (rightly or wrongly) about the connection to work in 3GPP, admittedly so far only proposed work. Others have pointed out work related to WiFi and DOCSIS, how much should this weight in here ?

Are the chairs any wiser ? :-)

/Ingemar
================================
Ingemar Johansson  M.Sc. 
Master Researcher

Ericsson Research
Network Protocols & E2E Performance
Labratoriegränd 11
971 28, Luleå, Sweden
Phone +46-1071 43042
SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com
www.ericsson.com

      Is there a time for different colors?
  Different names you find it hard to spell
                    U2 - Miss Sarajevo 
=================================