IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [tsvwg] New Version Notification for draft-heist-tsvwg-ecn-deployment-observations-02.txt

Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> Wed, 10 March 2021 08:20 UTC

Return-Path: <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
X-Original-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00FB3A1ED8 for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Mar 2021 00:20:33 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.349
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.349 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.248, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dcTDoxbWqjdK for <tsvwg@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Mar 2021 00:20:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05on2080.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.21.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B24523A1ED7 for <tsvwg@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Mar 2021 00:20:31 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Vu3m2jzrtPQG5/HVsKXuEG7TRHquRQEBCMGALmIeqFicKVGTM0Rc77HUEtwHDuI7XeI0BVs48LqLHHj9NcpgP81JMkBg+PlxjC8O6jBlC5KdUQbBK7UTqTONIpWUzmjutEz/xElggGUucOyvz1UUjD1ciU+N9l2pt4Az8ak42zwyPaMp/erONzxThaU4s8XX73Wbi35kv8Uf8K8rXBJwEPuELzO53AFsMSjjPrfKPWwDRNEFS4Ryk1ph7wvdIVuypDR4YmhoOdooj0ZiB8fAhsKxOU6sSc6FjSwfIOUVHmoh+NT6+MX2LjPEObehHjsSP463RnCDeMuvzKNGoxqwhA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=MNkm9efbv0Crzmy/HARxNO6ltCtUoasonp2IAOQQXS0=; b=EexfikVF9IN1r/89UtAdYvadZt8IdTl5a+wXhidNVrUGP6A5aL2RybnoBwpQRrJQWSDW2EjvTwh2jUD2vlv6E7j7WlgwAxN95/Bu51+Xg9uOrUPHBe5Fk47TE3tMzir8yCNsNJ/xG8giY4Y2kgzgTvfSy7joKYfMQmDqWRGpLsEWzpIEVEwJiOBYQCDcFcP9xcJlee5wQruBNzgdPjHmBcRPvWDv5dMkNxR9QqQG7lAp8IuT2Cfyq8unJicZSaTCL/xmyDQsgJR62PnZtv55ftYgmtEW63bJeloxlrjzC2DCsfkjlpJRSHFX9ppG/V4Ib9+PS9PlxpPUvqxlCiI8ag==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ericsson.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ericsson.com; dkim=pass header.d=ericsson.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericsson.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=MNkm9efbv0Crzmy/HARxNO6ltCtUoasonp2IAOQQXS0=; b=b/YRp4Shy67dPjdw2t4me3WLPxPHhM559/2wNUPR7jXiYI2yf29qjIFWtkdHCf94EwnZ2G1mpCgqx7nMLZqjU4voz/Wvp5FFmrrblAay2gFfyXDrstuohZCgHJf1Fx+z0ZArIsELvp/1W5JM7Zvik2h7HEUG+MkD5uQ4+ibLYHk=
Received: from HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:3:6c::8) by HE1PR07MB3178.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:7:31::28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3933.30; Wed, 10 Mar 2021 08:20:28 +0000
Received: from HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a087:95cb:e76b:d57]) by HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a087:95cb:e76b:d57%10]) with mapi id 15.20.3912.027; Wed, 10 Mar 2021 08:20:28 +0000
From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>, "alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk" <alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk>
CC: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] New Version Notification for draft-heist-tsvwg-ecn-deployment-observations-02.txt
Thread-Index: AQHXFOEpavrCJBrzkUSLrIx1DVe3NKp7rTuAgAASPNCAAAd8AIAABMiAgAAApYCAAA28iYAADG2AgAD0qCA=
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 08:20:27 +0000
Message-ID: <HE1PR0701MB2299513F1AA89FCB79FC8121C2919@HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
References: <161519742798.12373.8424747645620734074@ietfa.amsl.com> <4cc306ea278dab68741b0c27713bfb7c84522e11.camel@heistp.net> <72467bfe9a38edee74c4ab8e12ec350e23315ec9.camel@heistp.net> <ce2c8397-1bb9-8634-7822-88b9ba6d3b22@bobbriscoe.net> <0F3DBF89-9DA3-401C-9793-5F0F2C72ED5E@gmx.de> <22CD0890-346C-4A43-AE20-DCED78E99FEA@gmail.com> <HE1PR0701MB22993B8CE19FD0F077917AADC2929@HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <414FE1AC-50BD-4929-9731-B5EBDD4A820A@gmail.com> <264638c5-f579-2b0a-cd10-f9995f738d1e@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <374EDDB9-118C-4387-9C44-2B5C471C49A1@gmail.com> <9310b37c-8b82-1ce4-446d-a494c81e0602@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <1653123300.623993.1615307583540@mail.yahoo.com> <04B5AEDC-32EB-476E-A933-A306FEDBDCD0@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <04B5AEDC-32EB-476E-A933-A306FEDBDCD0@gmail.com>
Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ericsson.com;
x-originating-ip: [83.227.122.88]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7753c1e7-c84b-42d1-825f-08d8e39d5cde
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR07MB3178:
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <HE1PR07MB317850A25ED51C5F1DF82174C2919@HE1PR07MB3178.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(396003)(39860400002)(346002)(136003)(376002)(316002)(110136005)(478600001)(54906003)(53546011)(71200400001)(7696005)(26005)(6506007)(86362001)(99936003)(33656002)(83380400001)(186003)(64756008)(66446008)(5660300002)(52536014)(66476007)(66616009)(66946007)(76116006)(15650500001)(9686003)(4326008)(8936002)(55016002)(2906002)(107886003)(66556008)(8676002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg="SHA1"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02A6_01D7158E.9AEF6AC0"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR0701MB2299.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7753c1e7-c84b-42d1-825f-08d8e39d5cde
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Mar 2021 08:20:27.9012 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ckCd4HJf74BpGaoJD7VjY+mwP9gYRwGdYDgLRuV0sgIGYpunibGGo5yqE1hof+FBlHmY0MlhC+9v/PU6uovaNycEN1pDhO33RYreEm7X7SQOp4XokVxsuW+3eHHlUix4
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR07MB3178
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tsvwg/_y00PC62R615Pyuq0J9TygZnn6E>
Subject: Re: [tsvwg] New Version Notification for draft-heist-tsvwg-ecn-deployment-observations-02.txt
X-BeenThere: tsvwg@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Transport Area Working Group <tsvwg.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/tsvwg/>
List-Post: <mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg>, <mailto:tsvwg-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 08:20:34 -0000

Hi Jonathan

I most certainly hope that we don't spend valuable meeting time on
discussing the real or imagined merits with SCE. 

If you find that specs are unclear as to how enable L4S support in Linux
kernels and elsewhere, including how to navigate around the RFC lingo, then
please point out where to fix this. A good starting point is the L4S Ops
draft.

Like things are now my only interpretation of the situation is that you
place your bets on that L4S will fail and you do your best to make this
failure happen. For instance you point out a problem with fq-codel and L4S
but show little interest or even oppose solutions to have this issue
remedied. Please prove me wrong.

/Ingemar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tsvwg <tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Morton
> Sent: den 9 mars 2021 18:18
> To: alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk
> Cc: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; tsvwg IETF list
> <tsvwg@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [tsvwg] New Version Notification for draft-heist-tsvwg-ecn-
> deployment-observations-02.txt
> 
> > On 9 Mar, 2021, at 6:33 pm, alex.burr@ealdwulf.org.uk wrote:
> >
> > With hindsight, I'm not sure why rfc8311 (which is standards track)
didn't
> deprecate marking ECT(1) the same way it deprecated endpoints using it,
> outside experiments.
> 
> Because there's more than one possible experiment involving the ECN field.
> SCE actually prefers that existing networks and endpoints continue to
comply
> with RFC-3168 in these respects, originating ECT(0) (though if they
originated
> ECT(1) it actually wouldn't hurt anything) and treating both ECT
codepoints as
> equivalent.  If we started treating ECT(1) differently in the network,
that
> would make deploying SCE more difficult.
> 
> Which is another reason I'm opposed to pre-emptively moving to
> accommodate L4S.  But even if I were to make that change "today" (which I
> probably couldn't, because Linux kernel maintainers also like to be RFC
> compliant), there would be a *long* transition period as existing
equipment
> sits around with old firmware, during which L4S would still need to
> accommodate existing networks or stay away from them, not the other way
> around.
> 
>  - Jonathan Morton

v2.29.0 | Report a Bug | By Email | System Status